Intro
If you go to China, you'll never ever see the world in the same way again.
Never. What made you decide, I'm going to become this person who just goes to
China a lot, studies it, understands it, tries to figure it out? China doesn't in the first instance
think of itself as a nation. It thinks of itself as a civilization. you know, I
mean, lifting 250 million people out of poverty, highways and roads that are much better than anything in Europe,
much faster trains that, you know, go at speeds that are almost as fast as airplanes. And from that moment, my life
was different. I got back to England. I didn't want to think again about the,
you know, the West. I thought I'll park that. As a very smart, efficient nation
and government, you surely see a more intelligent way to deal with this problem than repression.
And you don't seem to be letting up. The my question was was about uh Shing Jang.
And the only question that never was never replied to was my question. You
know, they c they call the 19th century the century of humiliation. the the colonial powers won the rights to use
the rivers and uh u basically take whatever they wanted to take. Yes, I saw
you were running. Only a white man would do something as stupid as that.
So, hey all. This is just a quick note uh to tell you that the interview that you're about to see with Martin Jax uh
on how China is rising was filmed before the US and Israel struck Iran on February 28th. As a result, no
references to the war is made in the interview. Uh but retrospectively, what I can say, as you will see, is that
Martin's argument that the West and the USA are quickly falling very far behind
China uh probably just makes more more sense right now and is even stronger. Uh enjoy the interview.
Must have been some intuition that the color today is blue. Yeah, I know. It's a great minds.
That's not That's a good cup of tea. But unfortunately, next time I drink it, it'll be pretty cold.
Clapping, two, one. Hi, good day. Welcome to another episode of Unapologetic. I'm
China is already No. 1
your host, Ashwar Karim, and I'm very pleased to welcome to the studio Martin Jax. Martin, welcome to the show.
Hi. Uh Martin, uh if you're not familiar with his work, um he's a scholar of many things. uh he's a political commentator,
a journalist, analyst, but for the last few decades he's been studying and understanding and learning and
communicating to the rest of the world who and what China is. Um about 17 years
ago, he wrote a book, When China Rules the World, which has sold over a million copies. Um you're currently deep in the
weeds with a second book on China. I don't know if it's a second, but your second sort of big book on China. You've
probably written many things on China, which will come out in 2027. Uh Martin, you on the show today mainly I think to
do what you normally do, which is to explain to people outside of China how they misunderstand China and how they
need to rethink what China is and how China is and how China is emerging or
emerged quite frankly already as as a global leader. Um I'm going to start the interview in a different way, right? in
the sense that before we actually go through China's history and and what we don't understand it before we normally
I'll ask a takeaway at the end of of the interview but if there's a if there's someone listening to this
what is the takeaways you would like them to to get from from from this interview
uh well China is already a great power um you can't understand it through a
western prism and you should not expect to be able to understand it in those
terms terms. Uh I would argue that China is now
probably the global leader more important than the United States. Um and
that process is going to continue and we'll see a process of I suppose this
the cynicization of the world as opposed to what we've experienced for a long time which has been the westernization
of the world by which I don't mean that um the rise of China will be any kind of
replica of the western era. I think it'll be different in all sorts of ways um and that's what's going to be so
interesting. Okay. So I mean just I was going to going to ask more questions but you say you say it's already the world leader.
Economic dominance, explained
When you say that in what way do you mean? Do you mean economically? Do you mean it's in terms of the impact it's
having in the direction the world's taking? What what specifically do you mean? Well it's already it's already ever since um uh 2014
uh China's had the largest economy in the world overtook the United States uh
uh measured by GDP according to primary purchasing power. Now it's probably
about 25% bigger than the United States. Um it is uh I mean it's it's uh manufact
it is the number one manufacturing country in the world with a big lead. It
is represented in all the new innovative innovations uh in in the economy. uh in
fact it's it's really now the uh uh engine of innovation much more important
than the United States uh if you you know in terms of uh AI it's probably
already the leader in a in in AI or it's on a par with the United States and in
areas like robotics even drugs now I mean China is becoming you know a a big
innovator um electric vehicles you only have to look on the streets to see uh
the rise of China. China's the leader in this area. So uh in terms of economic
yes uh in terms of its trading relationships, I mean it's a it's a very
very big trading country. It's much larger than the United States. Um and that's very important because that means
that China exists in the context of many different trading relationships all over the world, particularly with the global
south. Okay. I mean I I would we are going to discuss throughout the interview. We're going to we're going to
we're going to when we when we start the sort of the longer discussion we're just kind of now trying to get an understanding of of what the what the
what the main issues will be. And we'll start with the history. We'll talk about how China has changed the cultural revolution the impact of colonialism on
China. And I think that impacts how both the colonized world, the colonizers in
the world think about China and how the colonized world associates with China and how Chinese the Chinese themselves
think back about about how they think about the world. Um we'll also talk about you know the the is the sticky issues around China, human rights
records, authoritarianism, all those kind of things. Um uh but just before we go there um when I hear what you just
said that you know China's leading economically it's it's the biggest manufacturer. I mean I think most people now who see the economy see stats. I
think the AI debate is something something that's that's probably you know not settled but everything else is
kind of kind of settled. um definitely you know the biggest manufacturer most trading partners those kind of things
but the the first push back that comes in my mind is culturally China seems a lot more insular than I
mean or maybe it's just because I'm part of the English speaking westernized world that I think this way but it seems
that you know the sort of the grip that the the western world has on the world culturally in terms of movies art
language that's going to take a long while for for the Chinese to kind of what's your what's your response to
China's soft power lag
that? Oh I agree with that. I mean uh you we we've always got to remember we got to pinch ourselves and remember that uh
China was more or less an unknown to the world and certainly the western world
until very very recently. This is a very recent phenomenon. um probably basically
a phenomenon of this century because in the 20 in the 20th century um China was
pretty invisible to mo to most to most people certainly in the way the west views things. Um so uh uh and it the
leading edge of it of of its transformation as as as is true of all countries rising countries is economic
but uh the impact of other other areas and development of other areas usually I
think lags behind somewhat and uh the problem of China is that uh it is in
many ways very unknown. I mean, you know, people don't know very much about Chinese history. Um, and I think if
people knew more about it, they'd be both fascinated and shocked by uh some
of the problems that China has had historically. Um likewise um in terms of um I mean the
lang because the language is so different and it's so unfamiliar uh it's very different langu difficult language
to learn and and so on. So, you know, in a world where the lingua franker has for
some time now been English, uh that makes uh China that little bit more
inaccessible. I think uh in terms of movies and so on, yes, I think it's it's
obviously true that Hollywood's dominated this area for a long time, but um Chinese movies are becoming
increasingly uh uh you know big big sellers as it were uh in China and that
area of the world because um we've always got to remember that you know the
the the sort of cynic area if you like which includes Japan and Asia and and so
on. You know, it's quite it's quite it's quite a large has a large population in
its own right. I mean, uh the Assean countries population is about 700 million people. So, um so I think that
uh this is definitely a slower process. I'll give you another example where this is where we're very unfamiliar with uh
uh Chinese uh ways if you like and that is you know the uh the philosophy of
China and where it comes from and the great thinkers the great sages like Confucious and so on. I mean people know
people have heard of computers. I mean a lot of people have heard of computers but I don't think their their understanding of ch of computers is very
great and it's not talked about in the same way as you know the Greeks and so on. Um but uh uh uh you can't this is
this is where it's got very important. You can't understand the notion of the individual, the concept of the
individual, the relationship of the individual towards society in China without having some knowledge of the the
historical tradition because um the the roots of the Chinese attitude towards
the individual and it and his or her relationship to society is uh is very
deep and you know longunning. Now people for example when they're talking about Chinese politics they say oh you know
the reason why um the Chinese um don't
have um enough freedom and so on is because of um because of the communist
regime and so on. In fact, you know, and you could see this during the COVID era.
Um, you know, the Chinese expect uh and believe in society and then believe in
the state in a different kind of way to what happens in the west. So therefore, there's an expectation uh that the state
will lead in a way that opposite in the United States. People don't look to the state and rather are rather enimical to
the state. And this is not so true in Europe, but it's partially true in Europe as well. So there's lots of ways
in which if we want to understand China in a deeper way socially or culturally or thought, we've got to know something
about Chinese history and Chinese thinking. Okay. I want to I want to ask you you've kind of touched on it on what we
fundamentally don't understand about China. So I want to I want to that's the main question I want to ask you now, but
before that why I mean you've you've clearly been been studying China for a long time. Where does the where does the
interest come from? What you know were you just a ch child that was interested in in China? develop in your career like
How Martin found China
like what made you decide I'm going to become this person who just goes to China a lot studies it understands it
tries to figure it out well and I'd say it's one of those kind of accidents in life uh that you you at
some point you change direction and only later do you realize how fundamental
it's been uh I I I used to be you know a kind of writer and protagonist in the
British political scene on the left and I edited what for its time was a very
influential and famous magazine called Marxism Today but to be honest with you
our international coverage was poor it was not so significant it was a very western centric above all British
centric magazine I I think while I was there I only published one major article
over 14 years on China so that is a way that's a good illustration and you were there from I think it was
77 1991. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. Yeah. And uh so I and then when I
closed the magazine because I thought we'd just done all we could and if I didn't want it to just peter out. I
wanted it to go out all guns blazing as it were. And uh and then um someone's
this is a very personal uh story. Uh you know I I never had any time because
Marxism Day was a killer time wise and I never had any money because it was uh we
didn't have any money. So it was one hell of a slog, you know.
It was um and uh and when I stopped I I
I it was a bit better towards the end because I you know I I had acquired a
certain amount of uh what celebrity because of the success of the magazine the influence of magazine. So I got
asked to write columns and television things and so on. So the last three or
four years of it was was financially easier. But anyway, when I finished I had I wasn't sure what I was going to do
actually to be honest. Um and uh um and I tried I was trying this that the other
and um and then it so happened that uh I
was thinking where shall I go on holiday? Um and um and I was talking to
a friend. I said, "Oh, we just come back from Southeast Asia. you you could I had
never I'd been to Japan in 1979 for a conference and I I got a very I was very
fascinated by it but basically I was in a hotel room all all the time in this conference so I'd never been to this
part of the world so I went and I mean it wasn't by today's standards it wasn't
very um imaginative but by but but but but then I went went to Hong
uh southern China uh Malaysia and Singapore. Um I wouldn't recommend that
that choice now but uh but then it was incredible because for me because I
you know I knew the figures but seeing is believing and I was really taken
aback by the modernity of obviously Hong Kong particularly uh
and Singapore um and and the question that was in my mind was it's so modern
Is it western? In other words, is this just a sort of
uh imitate imitation or an adaptation better way of putting it of western
modernity or is this something rather different? And at that time this was an argument in in intellectual
circles uh with the assumption that you know globalization was westernization.
That was the dominant mantra. Westernization. Yes. Yeah. in in the 1990s.
Um, and I was and I was I'd read uh one
or two things before I left. um Ezra Vogel's book the four the the miracle
the four nations I can't remember it's called now but it was a for a beginner it was a beginning book it's a really
good book and uh so when I that so that was very important and I remember this
extraordinary site when we we were on a a coach uh uh in Guandong province which
is north of Hong Kong and um And it was on either side of the road. And I mean
it was extraordinary uh kind of um snapshot of uh of various historical
eras existing alongside each other, you know. Um and uh the water buffalo
farmers usually with very little in the way of aids at all. people walking,
people on all kinds of contraptions. The it was this was an a mode in the middle of the countryside, but it was
absolutely packed and uh and then occasionally you'd get this flashy
MercedesBenz because this was already the reform period uh go by and you I got
this and as far as I could see they'd clear the land, you know. So it was extraordinary moment. I used to be an
historian. I economic historian. This was in Hong Kong or this was in southern China. Okay. Southern China. Okay. In Wanong province
and uh which was the leading became the leading province for the economic
initial economic transformation of China. And I I I
thought to myself, you know, this is what the industrial revolution must have been like in Britain in the 1830s or or
1840s and so on or earlier. Um but this was on a scale which was completely
different because it's so so much later and China is so much bigger and so on. But I was absolutely fascinated um by
that and um so so that was one you know so I was f I was absolutely
gobsmacked by what I was seeing and uh feeling and then I on the last day of
this holiday um I
I met well I saw I I used to run every day and so if I could and But when I was
running, I I vision back and I saw this woman to the left and uh as I about she smiled, but
Love and East Asia
everyone smiled at you in Malaysia. Um and um and I realized that and anyway, I
saw her later on uh uh at a That's
right. Yes. at a a jungle train. so happened and she um she she was from
behind. There was quite a few of us getting together and she said, "Haven't I seen you somewhere before?"
And I turned around and he said, "Yes, I saw you. You were running. Only a white
man would do something as stupid as that." So I thought, "Wow, who's who is this?"
And uh then she said, "Why did you come to Tieran?" She said, "There's much better much nicer ride islands than
that." And I said, "I was fat right used to tell me that." Anyway, we fell into the conversation and within
a four quarter an hour, 20 minutes, I'd completely fall fallen in love with her.
And uh and we went on the drunk and I always knew where she was. it it she
then from that moment to even now she
uh has always been on my mind and uh anyway to cut a long story short of
course here we have a double whammy you know we've got I've got falling in love with she was in Indian Malaysian uh
Punjabi background and uh on the one hand and on the other hand this extraordinary intellectual political
ical experience of East Asia and from that moment my life was different. I got
back to England. I didn't want to think again about the you know the west. I thought I'll park that. That is my
history. I want to have a different I'm I'm going to take a different direction which is exactly what happened. And um
so you you just have you have you seen this woman again by the way or not? Oh yeah. Uh
I know we completely digressing from what we supposed to speak about, but this is a a wonderful and terrible
story. Um what happened uh was um it was
very complicated having this relationship, but I I was so entranced by her that I was determined to try and
make it work. And she she she had not traveled really at all. And um and uh
anyway, I I I went to see her. I was actually doing an interview with Chris Patton in Hong Kong then about for BBC
program and I decided to go to Kale and see her. She lived in Katon
J actually and uh she and anyway and nothing happened but after that and I
went back on the phone you know she um she she said to me I said how are you
feeling? I just thanked her for her hospitality and she told me, "I'm
missing you." And I knew at that moment that my feelings were were her feelings
and uh and she came to live in um England uh in uh 1994
in September and she um
this is a hard story to tell you. You don't have to if you don't. And uh what happened was that
uh uh yeah this was a a phenomenal relationship, a brilliant relationship.
Never had anything like it's like before and since. Um and she she got managed to
get a job at city law firm. she was a lawyer and uh and then they asked her if
she'd like to go to so they wanted to cond Hong Kong and so we lived in Hong
Kong and um she had suffered a lot of racism in Hong Kong from the Chinese
local Chinese a lot and she spoke fairly good conversational Cantonese because
she was brought up in a Chinese area of uh J
uh and uh she had she she was mildly epileptic on New Year's Eve.
She um at 1:00 in the morning we were there. Do you remember I C H C H C H C H C H C
H C H C H C H C Hobs the historian? Yeah. Well, they were staying with us. And um she had an epileptic fit. It's
only the second serious one she ever had. Um she was taken to the hospital.
Um and she died in the hospital as a result
of terrible negligence in my view because of racial prejudice.
She was neglected and she died on the 2nd of January um 2000.
I'm very sorry for your loss. So you can see how
East Asia opened up in a by and developed my life in a completely
different way. It you know uh we we've got a son by the way he's now 27 Rabbi.
Um so um yeah so from that moment onwards um from
that visit uh my mind was absolutely consumed by this and by East Asia and I
tried to find any excuse I could to go um to write or to do a program or a
holiday sometimes and uh um and then
actually I think it was Neil Ferguson I'm quite a good although we're very politically very different. Um Neil
said, "Why don't you write a book uh on you know so much about it or he's
so interested in it? Why don't you write a book?" And that's you know that was the sort of I I think I'm not certain
about it. So I think that was probably that that was planted the first time I remember thinking yeah that that's an
interesting idea. That's what I did. So this was I'm guessing he planted this idea in your mind about 2004 or five
because the book came out in 200 earlier earlier. because um I'd already
start I started working the book on the book I think when did I got the contract from in the late 90s I got a contract
with Penguin and and and then so going to Hong Kong made sense when Harry got
the job because I um I I was obviously much more able to
access the region than I had been previously. Yes. Okay. So coming back to my my initials thanks for sharing that by the
way. I know that's very difficult and personal. Um, so when it comes to
What the West misunderstands
understanding China, what do you think we, the people in the west who consume western media who may even want to
empathize with the global south, um, as opposed to, you know, people on the far right, etc., um, what do we
fundamentally misunderstand about China? Well, I I think we expect China to be
like us. We expect China to be western. So we
measure China by western standards and western values
and I understand that because the west has been dominant in the world for so long
and the way the ideas we're presented with
all sorts of ways are you know western ideas but we've come to con we came to
assume that this enormous conflation which was the west was really the world
and everything else was tagged on behind it and and what was happen as these countries took off was they would become
like us. Well, it's a complete not obviously not true. I mean uh you know
it it's the these countries have totally different histories and technologies and
so and and cultures and so on. So um they're they're very very different. So
we instead of mo moving more and more into western modern modernization
actually what we're seeing and this is what you know but I was puzzled with when I went to Hong Kong originally what
we're seeing is a multiple modernities not just this is not just true of China
of India it's true everywhere everywhere you know in in in the Islamic world it's going to be different and it's going to
remain different and it's not going to be a copy of the west Okay. Um I mean
China is a very old civilization. Um it's been going on for many years, 5,000
years if not longer. During large parts of that they were, you know, a very prosperous nation, um key trading center
of the world. Um, if you had to explain to someone who's new to this to someone who's doesn't understand who China is,
just up until the modern era, so up until about 1500 before colonialism and industrialization takes place, just what
is the key components of of China's history um that make it what it is until that
moment until about the year 1500. I think the most important thing to
Civilisation, not a nation
understand about China is that
it's a very old civilization. I mean, the Chinese talk about 5,000 years of civilization.
And for several phases in its history, it
has been the most advanced or one of the most advanced countries in the world.
So if you go back I mean if you go back just to take take the last 2,000 years China was sort of unified in in a in a
fashion uh in 211 BC and since then uh during the u part of
the Han dynasty part of the Tang dynasty part of the Sun dynasty
part of the Ming dynasty China was certainly you know
extraordinary one of the most advanced often the most advanced culture in the world.
There is no other civilization that has had that kind of history that
they've come you know that that when they they rise
as and decline as China did rise and decline they don't rise again to become
so influential and extraordinary by you know global measures. Um, and uh,
so I think what that speaks to is a kind of
inner strength uh, of the culture.
Why? How? Um, well, it's had it's had various threads to it. I mean, you know,
very deep belief in education and the importance of education. um a very rich culture, a very rich
literary culture over a very long historical period. um from you know
Confucious was around about the same time as the Greek philosophers you know 2 and a half thousand years ago and so on um which that was before the uni
unification of China and others like Mensus and so on were were were very were very advanced philosophers for
their time different from the western traditions but very uh very important.
So I think that what you have here is the picture of um a not a country
but a civilization. It's very important that I think for us to understand that China
doesn't in the first instance think of itself as a nation. It thinks of itself
as a civilization. after two uh uh 211 BC China uh uh
didn't or before that for that matter when there was lots lots of Chinese states before unification
um they they they thought of they didn't have boundaries and borders I mean China
didn't start developing borders really until the 19th century the late 19th
century when because it was you know because it was so badly badly uh harmed
really by the by the European powers in particular. Um China China hadn't drawn
borders. It didn't have embassies and so on. So the whole way in which China existed was very different from what
happened in the west particularly from uh the treaty of failure and then of course in the 19th century and so on the
rise of the nation state that didn't happen. China was very different. China was a civilization. To this day I argue
that China is first and foremost a civilization state and only secondarily
a nation state. So this is um
uh now another feature of China is um
you know is how has it held together over such a long historical period. Um
because it's a huge I mean it's a huge country. It's not as big as it was actually during the um um during theQing
period which was the sort of last dynasty but it's still a very big country which you know population size
is about 17% of the world's population and somehow or other China's held
together as a whole um for a very long historical period
most of the population concentrated in the uh eastern part of China and less in
the central and very little in the western part of China where where that
the conditions were not didn't lend themselves to economic rich agriculture
etc. So only about 6% of China live live in the uh um uh western part of the
country. So I would so this so I I would I would say to people uh who don't know
much about China you got you got to understand all this because you got to think about it in a different way
uh to to to the experience in in in the in in the west and um and the and the
growth of a a western state. I mean my view is one of the great strength now in
the world of China against a country like the United States is that it is a civilization state in the first instance
and only secondarily a nation state and that gives the country a great sense
a a great a great a great sense of affinity a great sense of um uh some
great traditions. I mean the state tradition in China is undoubtedly one of the most outstanding features of China.
Um you know it's it and the the people believe in the state um uh in a way that
they don't by and large in western society because we've got a very different tradition. Okay. Um I mean I think a big part of
both our understanding of China and how China views the west and this is again just just my assumption but obviously
it's the story of industrialization colonialism uh the opium wars which we can go into
um and then the postworld war II period which is almost now two periods period the period of full-blown
communism Marxism under Mao and then the cultural revolution right um all of
these things also are kind of in a way a lot of it's organic But a lot of it reactions to the west,
right? So I mean you can go through this one by one as you like. You can maybe just talk about colonialism and then
just talk about or you can answer it generally as as you prefer and if I if I require I'll ask I'll answer more more
follow-ups because it's a big question. But just how is that period the period of 500 years of confronting the west in
The century of humiliation
a different way because it did use it did I mean the relations between China and Europe are old. It's because of
trade routes and stuff like that. But in terms of there's now this emerging power that is colonizing parts of the world
and has colonial designs on China and then meddles with it and the opium wars is very destructive and its first real
you know like really massively destructive part on Chinese society and then there's then the condescension
which follows which still exists um fundamentally changes a proud civilization or maybe it doesn't change
it but it definitely creates stimuli which makes it react differently. So, how has that experience sort of impacted
China and and and and how do you how do you see them coming through that?
Well, it's had a it's had an enormous impact on China. Um
uh and I think it uh it it was even more difficult for China to take because you
know it it's it's very it's a proud country, a proud culture, great civilization. So to be um uh reduced as
it was uh by Europe, you know, by Britain and France and lots of other
countries joined in um was was a terrible experience.
But I think the point a crucial point here is that um the reason why China was
vulnerable uh to what happened with the opium wars. I mean it really starts big time in the 18 from the 1840s. Um was
that China had China had failed to industrialize
and I mean the strength of countries like Britain and France both economically and therefore also
militarily was that they were they were industrial industrial countries and
China was primarily still not an industrial country. it had bits and bobs, but so it was well behind and it
didn't realize how far it was behind. uh it was um uh you know it it it it just
couldn't come to terms and and so from that moment of the 1840s the great
challenge for China was you know how do we um how do we uh recover from what's
happened um and how do we uh modernize
and the great question of the 19th century facing Japan had the same kind of How do we how how do we modernize you
know uh that first of all there's a recognition that needs of recogition
that Europe had modernized and that was the source of its strength and then there was the question of how do we uh
transform ourselves and this was a long a long struggle in China to to find the
conditions for modernization and the great achievement in my view of the Chinese Communist Party in The first
instance well one is to unify the country but the second thing in 19 after
1949 um was to falteringly
uh begin the process of modernization in China. It doesn't start with D Xiaoing.
It starts already with the Mao era but there's a lot of mistakes made in that period not surprisingly. Um uh and then
from Dong onwards of course we all know this extraordinary story of dramatic economic growth from 1978 growing for 35
years at 10% a year. Fantastic. Incredible. Um but I think that for
China um the experience you know they call they
call the 19th century the century of humiliation and it was
bits of China were colonized mainly the advanced bits the which became treaty
ports you know so Beijing Shanghai you and there'd be and the part of the the
the nature of the colonization would be there'd be a French concession that there'd be a uh a British concession and
so on in these uh places and uh they were they were uh they the the colonial
powers won the rights to use the rivers and uh uh basically take whatever they
wanted to take you with uh so it wasn't like an African colonization
uh but it was um it had a hugely damaging effect and you know the
indemnities charged and the wars that were fought and so on. And so China was really, you know, was on its knees. And
so you got the fall of the, you know, the imperial regime uh in 1911.
And then after that you got a lot of um
you you got you got uh a very
difficult period of division in China. Um and you got um
uh the Japanese invasion from 19 uh 30-36
in uh northeast China and then across most of China from 1939 to 45. So China
you know this was a very proud country very aware you know every Chinese person
in their different ways knows about this history and common law as it were. Um
and what they saw now was China, you know, on its knees basically. Um hence
Ma's 1949 speech on October the 1st uh was um you know, we've got to stand up.
China must stand up. And um and I think that uh one of the I
mean one of the there are a number of interesting uh threads from this actually um China
um I mean chi China from especially the reform period and dung understood that
it had to learn from the west it couldn't you know this so there's a great learning phase which was learning
from the uh it starts the the first period you know with Mao they were linked with the
Soviet Union after the end of the second world war and so on. Um and then the British ship broke down in the late 50s
and then China was very much kind of on its own. Um, and it had very little contact with the West really, relatively
speaking. And then that began to change really with the 1972 visit of Nixon and
Kissinger to see Mao and and um um and the Chinese leadership. Um, and then
that then there was a new that that was the beginning of
the the end of the isolation of China and its incorporation into progressively
into the global economy. So I think that I think that what China
China was never uh didn't react in a uh well it did have a a negativity towards
the west obviously because of how the west had treated it but it it also understood that it had to learn. China
had to learn from elsewhere. They're great learners. The Chinese are that's one of the reasons why they've been so
successful over a long period of history. Um and um and so I I I I think
that um uh I mean one of the advantages I think
China's had as an as a a colonial as a as a colony or a having a colonial
experience is that um it never
it was it still remained independent in a fashion. It was a a semicolon not
completely colonized. So that long history of traditions of the state and
so on remained there. It wasn't ripped out. I mean the civilizational tradition
of China was not remained very much intact. Whereas I think one of the
terrible things happened for a lot of countries of the global south is they've actually you know the colonial
experience and the postcolonial experience deprived them of a lot of their traditions. they've had to
rediscover them. I don't think the Chinese had that problem in anything like the same way there was they were
they they the I think the depth of it of
those traditions, the depth of the culture, the continuity of the culture allowed China to be able to
recuperate and then achieve extraordinary things later on.
The economic miracle
Okay. So I mean you mentioned from 1978 10 years of growth for 35 years um you know people sort of attribute it uh that
those all sort of started with the cultural revolution which I think is about 91 or '92. Um
I mean it has been a great story. I mean just in terms of I mean there's there's there's I mean we will talk about what
people say in the west say the bad side and I'm not giving a value judgment. and just we will deal with authoritarianism
possibly the there's kind of like a monoculture movement under the Han sort of Chinese which we'll get to later but
before that what do you think I mean outside of the fact that there's this very rich nation traditionally
historically um that also has great ability great skill great belief in itself but I mean how did it turn itself
around that much how did it go from you know I mean lifting 250 million people out of poverty uh uh highways and roads
that are much better than anything in Europe, much faster trains that you know I go out speeds that are almost as fast
as airplanes. Um huge I mean entire like
factories the size of cities. I mean not cities but towns. I mean this is just something that's a bit mindboggling like
just you know what how did that happen? I know it's the most extraordinary
story. It really is. You c I think you capt what you just said actually. I mean,
you know, if you go to China now, I I I've said this for a long for a long time to people. I said,
when you go to China or if you go to China, you'll never ever see the world in the
same way again. Never. Because the Western mind always has the West at the
center of it. and you go to China and you realize that actually we're not the
center of the world anymore. The center of the world is somewhere around here.
I mean, China's modernity now is well in advance in my view of anything in the
west anything. Uh but you know this extraordinary
innovation across such a wide you know you it's throwing up new companies all the
time you know it where we where there were none there are now you know larger
and larger more and more companies with extraordinary capacities for innovation.
Um so how did this happen? I mean, you
know, I think one of the important things to understand about China is that
China's leadership model
well, first of all, it's got an extraordinary compet competent leadership. I mean, it Chinese
government is hugely more advanced than what you get in America or what you get in Europe. They know how to run things.
I mean, they're not a bunch of lawyers who are running running the show is which is the kind of leaders we get
here. We used to get lawyers. Now we get people who are just trying to get votes and do funny stuff and
yeah but in China you know if you look at the standing committee
a quite a proportion of them were educated at Chinua University
as engineers as scientists so they know how things work and the way the
communist party works. I mean common is a very organiz interesting organization which you must take seriously and not
just you know wallow in a sea of prejudice against it because what happened before which we don't like or
didn't like you know they they the way if you look at Xiin Ping's career you know he's run
you he started off running being a leading
figure in some I can't remember all the the stages but in a small town and then
eventually in a province. So he's he's got 40 years experience or something um
of knowing how to run things. I mean what does K star uh uh know about
running anything? And so we've got this kind of system of governance here where
you know we have pro we have allowed people to become the leaders who are
supposed to run the country and they don't have any experience of running running anything particularly. So I
think that that professionalization of of leadership and governance is very
important to what's happened in in China. Uh and so I I and I'd say look I'm not
going to argue for a moment that we should have the Chinese governance system here because it it's impossible.
It's a totally different history. A totally different history. But we need to learn
from them. That is very important. Learn the best things. But if you keep pushing it away and and being negative about it
where you don't learn learn anything in that fashion. I think that um that
another aspect of this process that you're talking about is that
the innovative capacity of China over this
historical period especially since 1978 and don um has been
that innovative um impulse is not just uh
you know the people who invent things or the people who run companies or the people who run the state. It's much
deeper than that. Look, if your economy is growing at 10% a year from 1978 until
2012, it means the economy is doubling in size
every seven years. It means living standards have basically kept pace with it. The living standards
have been transformed. So living standards are be doubling every se seven
years. And if you think of a family, the families, think of the generational gaps
between the grandparents, the parents and the kids. I mean they their
experiences are are very different societies. education, schools, hospitals, all of
these institutions are being transformed in the same kind of way. So there's a kind of, you know, there's a there
there's a comprehensive modernization taking place. Who's doing it? The people
are doing it. The people are transformed by this process. They're not external to
it. They're absolutely bound up in it. And so what you've got is a is a you
you've got a a very basically a very educated and
uh sophisticated population as a result of all these changes.
It's not it's all happening over there outside the people. the people are have are have been transformed by if you look
at by the way if you if you if you look at the people who running the companies or even the state and so on they don't
come from posh backgrounds there is an element of that but most of them you know have been transformed by this
process and they become you know they become leaders and so on okay I mean when when you when you hear
Human rights in China
China being spoke about on on western channels on western western media the the big thing is this is a one party
state uh lack freedom of expression, no human rights or or less human rights.
Um, what is true about that and what is I
wouldn't say untrue, but what is what becomes untrue because it's not explained properly?
I think that um
I mean it it's very different from here. Um
it's I mean I think that
um we we've been brought up in such a different tradition. uh they really
there's always been in a way China's always been a one party system ever
since 2,000 years ago because the imperial age was essentially a one you know then it was the imperial regime
which was the party if you like and so that's the tradition over 2,000 years is
that I mean Frank uh Francis Fukawa makes good point in one of his books he said I can't think of another country in
the world uh where the tradition of governance
displays such a powerful continuity as it does in China. So it's what China is
China's never going to be westernized in that that that same way as we are because it just 2,000 years is a hell of
a long time to be inquiring trying tradition and practicing those traditions and so on. So I think that so
and but likewise the Chinese the Chinese don't expect other countries to be like
it. I mean it's not like the old Soviet Union. The Soviet Union that the Communist Party in Britain in 1935
produced a program called for a Soviet Britain, you know, and and that was the
mentality of the Soviet Union. But the Chinese aren't like that at all. The Chinese But they weren't like that 2,000 years
ago as well. I mean they were not trying to impose their way and their values. Correct. Maybe they were trying to win victories and maybe they had impure
policies but they weren't looking at the outsiders. No saying become like us like you will become a subordinate to our partners but
become yourself. Yeah. I mean if you look at I mean you that's a very good point. I mean if you
go back to the the tributary system which was the sort of if you like China's world system i.e. within its
region. World equals a region. Then um uh it had it did not interfere with the
governance of the of the tribute states. I mean the only thing the only
requirement really it had was accept that um the emperor Chinese emperor was
the son of heaven and that um the um and
that uh Chinese culture, Chinese thinking, computers and so on were you know the
great thinkers. It didn't make any political requirements and that is political though. It is
political of course. I mean it's almost like it's almost like that that like like the son of heaven thing now. I mean it's almost like that
now because when I when I when I do speak I spoke to a few Chinese people on the podcast. One person in particular I
forget his name now. Um uh but but even when I hear their response in the media
it's also like they treat one China almost like that kind of thing. It's like when you push back on Tibet it's
like we're fine with the Tibet as long as and then you must they must believe in
one China. It's the same with, you know, so it's almost like you can do what you like except this
major big political thing and when you do that then you're fine. Yeah. When you're part of China. Yes. Yeah. True. They definitely got their
red lines. Um and uh uh the point I'm trying to
make is that um China is not interested in regime change. It has no it doesn't
believe in it. It doesn't. Why? Why? Why? Because I think China thinks of
itself as the middle kingdom. That that historically is how it saw itself. So no
one could be like no nowhere could be like China because only China could be like China. I mean it was a sense of uh
achievement and in some senses superiority I think in in in the attitude and to this day you know they
they they they've they don't want to uh interfere. I mean it won't be like the
British and American tradition, you know, Brit colonial tradition and then the American tradition, especially since
1945. I mean, they they they they're not interested in that. Um they they're
interested very important to the Chinese is the economy and trading. I mean, this
is, you know, what they're brilliant at historically over a very long period of
time is that it seems like I mean, a very powerful the other thing I say there's a very
powerful work uh uh work work tradition in China
um they're very hard workers the Chinese are okay I mean I want to I want to I
want to start getting to the belt and road initiative and how China is sort of building a a businessfriendly
Belt and Road, explained
uh empire that that that that helps them center themselves in in a way but also possibly has I mean I we want to talk
about whether those spin-offs for other nations are positive or negative and in which way Um but before that I mean just
to reflect over what you said it sounds a lot like I think western identity of
of greatness or of being efficient comes from a colonial idea of expansionism and
comes from subjugating other people and comes from an idea that we are better and superior which which aided the
colonial project. Um America obviously took on that mantle. I think I think
MAGA in some way now still the new MAGA movement which is becoming you know less
interested in instigating foreign wars or anything else sees still sees its supremacy but is maybe becoming
inward but I think the chi China is older than that and never had that expansion I mean it had it had an
imperial sense but it was always about we want to be China as you said so like there like whereas
if you're in western empire we need to have the more power we can project on the rest of the world the greater we are
but with a China it's the more we can be true to who we are and be efficient and
great as our Chinese kingdom the better and and you know and in that process
what happens to the rest of the world it's not none of their business but it's like we will work with the rest of the world in that um I mean that maybe
that's how if I'm trying to understand it but now let's let's talk about the belt and road initiative so China
by the way I agree with where you put okay good so I'm learning over here. Um,
so China are basically they're building a lot of infrastructure on land and on in ports I would say in various parts of
Africa and in in in mainland Asia or at least southern part of Asia um
connecting trade routes with its neighbors and other countries uh putting a lot of investment you know because
when I first saw the bold balcon it seemed like it was this infrastructure project but now I've come to know that
you know it's it's a much bigger project. It's about opening up highways and ports in the world that you know and
and almost providing the seed money for infrastructure with with obviously um leverage and and and you know but what's
what's at the heart of the balcon initiative its critics say that it's a form of soft imperialism. It's a way of
uh you know almost I mean they they don't think it's colonization in the western sense where people were enslaved
and languages were erased. I don't think it's that, but they say it's a form of neo colonialism, etc. Um, what's your
what's your response to that? What do you think it is? Tell us what it is, and then what tell us also what you think, you know, are the problems with the
critiques of it or maybe, you know, maybe maybe the criticisms are correct. Yeah.
Uh well I think that um well below when it was first announced
in 201213 um no one could work out what what the
hell it was. You know there were two major speeches that she gave one in um
Kazakhstan and one in Indonesia. And um
I think the idea as presented initially um uh was that look China's grown it it
it was it was directed at the developing world. It was not directed in any
serious way except at the edges towards uh um western the western world. Um and
uh the uh the um idea was that look we've
managed to grow and transform our economy and raise living standards and
um and uh and the role of the states been
important and so on. So it was really a development program for the developing
world uh based on Chinese experience. Um I think it I think actually
only China could have thought of something like this it because it's extraordinary.
There's 146 to 150 countries uh part of Belton road. I mean it it's
an extraordinary global enterprise. I mean it embraces the majority of humanity now
because only 90 odd countries in the world. Um and
I think that you know it speaks of it speaks to the historic achievement of
China you know being able to take on extraordinary big projects. um you know
whether it was uh the great wall or uh uh whether it was the tribute system or
what have you China China has this sort of global view I think it comes from the
fact that it was a civilization and that you see initially this is a very important point and we haven't discussed
it but you know uh chi China grew up from this is way before uh the
Chin dynasty and the unification of China. China grew up with a philosophy
of Tiania, everyone under heaven.
And it and I did mention earlier that you know that that China as a
civilization, it doesn't have boundaries, natural boundaries. So, so
