What do journalists who travel to China's Tibetan regions actually find?
Hey everyone, I'm Jason Smith, originally from sunny California, now living in beautiful Beijing. Today's
guest is Arnold August, a journalist and author. His books include Democracy in
Cuba and the 1997 to98 elections, Cuba and its Neighbors, Democracy in Motion,
and far more. He has written for Friends of Socialist China, The Global Times, CGTN, Black Agenda Report, The Canada
Files, Counter Punch, and more. He recently contributed a chapter to a new
book, China Changes Everything. Welcome to the bridge. In 2023, you joined a
delegation of scholars and journalists for a 7-day visit to Shiang, also known as Tibet. Uh, what motivated you to
participate in that trip, and what were your expectations going in? Well, I first went to China in 2006 with
my wife on a month-long trip. We visit, you know, most of China, but we did not
visit the western part, Tibetan region of China. So, when we got, I got the
invitation to go in the fall of 2023. Of course, I accepted right away. The other
reason I accepted was just before I got that invitation, there was a lot of noise coming out of the US state
department regarding the succession for the Daly Lama in Tibet and with the
usual narrative against you know regarding the genocide so-called genocide and violation of human rights.
So I had to go for that as well. and what I you know I've been dealing with
you know uh various narratives regarding Cuba and other countries in the south
and I have to admit the diff when I arrived in Tibet the difference between
fact and fiction was so crying it was more evident than any other country they
had dealt with whether it's Cuba and Latin America or whatever it was really outstanding the difference between what
we are told as a narrative and what is really the real situation there. And of
course, one of the things that came to mind, I will never forget in preparation for that visit, I viewed a a video uh
that included scenes from the situation during before 1951, before 1959, before
the liberation of Tibet. And the situation there was terrible. For example, you have uh people at surfs
living in cow sheds, grandmother, mother, grandchildren. We're talking
about four generation of people living in a in a cow shed. And you know, I also
were also in that video very gruesome, but we had to see it. scenes of the
torture that was carried out by the ruling elite which could only 5% of the
population against the the Tibetan people torture in their prisons you know we've I've never seen that before
anything as barbaric as that and thirdly I would say that in that video the
person who who did that video he included a section dealing with what is
the situation after the liberation of Tibet and he actually interviewed you
one of the people who was at the time a child living in a cow shed for several
generation in a brand new room a sorry a brand new apartment a brand new house of
in the traditional Tibetan style in Lassa. So this was really you know gave
me an idea of what was going to take place there when I arrived there. But
arriving there of course the difference between facts and fiction fiction was enormous.
Um yeah. So when you when you arrived there, could you tell us a little bit about your trip and what did you see and
how were your how did you your opinions about that region transform? Well, the
first thing that you know regarding uh religion, you know, the first thing when one arrives in Lassa supposedly the we
have the suppression of religion there uh of their religion and expression of
their religion. But you know the so many people in the streets were dressed in
their traditional religious garb carrying out religious ceremonies right there in the street for everyone to see.
there was no suppression at all regarding the uh their religion or of
course their language. And I think that one of the most important things that we learned there is that uh speaking with
the uh the people there and our guests in Tibet was the uh important
development of lifting millions of Tibetans out of extreme poverty. You wrote about that regarding China in
general and I think you'd also dealt with that region as well like how did it take place? We found out in speaking to
our guest there, our host there, sorry, that there was around 10 between 2012
and 2020, there was about dozens and dozens of committees were established
by Tibetans and experts also from the central government and they made 190,000
visits to different regions of Tibet to find out what the problems are, how what
had to be done to solve the problem of poverty and they actually succeeded uh in Tibet of all places, one of the most
backward regions of the world succeeded in bringing the the majority the all of
the people out of extreme poverty and of course one of the results was the uh income uh increased drastically. Life
expectancy of course increased drastically because of the health system. For the first time, everyone had
access to education in their own language. By the way, yeah, the the language issue is the one
that surprised me. Um, as someone who's been living in China for 13 years, I'm
used to the United States saying, "Oh, Christianity is outlawed." And then looking down the street and there's an
active Christian church, or oh, Buddhism is illegal in China. And then, you know, going to Buddhist temples all over
China. So, I was used to that. I expected them to probably be have access
to practicing their faith, but what really surprised me is I went to schools in in in Shiang and all of the kids were
learning Tibetan in addition to Mandarin. And so I I was very, you know,
pleasantly surprised that, you know, every basically every lie in the West
about about the region is inaccurate. And and that's good to see because people like you and me, people like, you
know, who are watching this program, people in the world, they want to know that other people have, you know, the
ability to preserve their culture, which is not the case in my home country, the United States. You know, that very few
Native Americans speak Navajo or or whatever their indigenous language was.
Those are not taught in public schools in the United States. However, in China in Shiang or Shinjziang or Inner
Mongolia, their native languages are taught side by side and so it's it's really kind of delightful to have other
people like yourself who have been there, you know, confirming what I have been saying. Um, you know, your writings
describe viewing historical film footage. You know, could you tell me a
little bit about how that juxtaposes with your your
visit, you know, like when you visited the the the Tibetan people and you're
reflecting on those images, what do you think of how the air region
has transformed? Well, I think one of the main uh disinformation narratives I'm sure you
heard as well is oh in China according to the state department and to a certain
extent even the Canadian government in a indirect way mirrors that view and there
are boarding schools in Tibet and this is a instrument for the central
government in Beijing to carry out genocide cultural genocide against the
Tibetan people against their language against the religion all that. So we were very happy to visit a boarding
school. I I think what you said is really important is that even in areas
in Tibet where the majority are Han they still have to learn Tibetan language as
well as Tibetans of course being learning their own language. So you know once again there's another you know very
important distinction between fact and reality. So we visit his boarding school. It was not in Tibet as such. It
was in the neighboring uh Chingghai province which has a very important Tibetan minority. So lo and behold right
in front of us we see that that whole narrative against China boarding school and all
that completely fell apart. What we saw there were students there a majority uh
Tibetan origin in that region. They learn in addition to physics, mathematics, all of the normal classes
or courses that people take anywhere in the world, they also learn Tibetan as
well as Han. So this was really an eye openener that had a great cafeteria,
great food. Like I think that any family, working-class family would love
their kids whether in Canada, United States or New Zealand or Australia would in Europe, they would love their kids to
be able to go to such a school with such a high quality uh level of of nutrition.
And I think that that boarding school uh was an eyeopener for me. I was expecting
something different, but it was really fantastic thing for us to see and to write about it. once we get back.
You know, I went to a university in Ningur Shiang which was called um the
University of Forestry and Animal Husbandry, I think. And I
Yeah, I I love sharing the story because it's exactly the opposite of the western narrative like you just like you said
about Shanghai. uh the I went to different classrooms and some classes were being taught in you know poetry and
you know philosophy you know of the Tibetan culture in rich complex Tibetan
language with like cursive on the board and they were clearly they'd been learning their whole lives like we would
be studying like English language literature in university and the class next to it kids were just learning and
they were Han students mostly they were minorities other than Tibetan and they are learning like introduction to how to
speak Tibetan. And so everyone at the university, regardless of where you're from, regardless of your ethnicity, is
learning the Tibetan language. So people from other provinces of China are required to learn Tibetan. So in instead
of eraser, we see actually the expanding and you know growth of their culture in
the national discourse. It's just amazing. Um next. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, sir.
I was going to say just to build on what you said um uh one in that uh contributing chapter to that new book on
China. The part that uh attracted the most attention, the most praise was I
when I compared as you hinted at on the one hand the situation of Tibetan
people, their language, their culture etc. comparing that to North America.
For example, the United States amongst the native people only 5%
of the native people in the United States can speak their own language. Compare that to almost 100% of the
Tibetans can who can speak and write their own language. In Canada, it's a bit better supposedly 13%. But this goes
I think when when the west talks about genocide they're really projecting what they carried out
in the colonial states whether it's United States or Canada against the native people they're projecting that on
the Chinese government and trying to blame the Chinese government for political reason for something that did
not take place but in China but it did take place in United States and Canada also in Australia and many other settler
colonies. Yeah, I wanted to actually address that because I know for certain that in the
United States of America, we had schools that deliberately tried to re-educate
Native Americans to be Christian, to speak English, to behave like Westerners, to use Western culture and
habits, and tried to basically not try succeeded in basically erasing these
cultures. I know that boarding schools specifically are a sore point for Canadians and this is part of the
discourse that takes place about what Canada has historically done to the indigenous populations. Could you talk
about a little bit about what happened in Canada? Well, the I'm glad that you
raised the issue of residential schools and in in my chapter I I I reproduce
some of a conversation I had with a well-known indigenous leader, Ellen Gabriel from Canada. And she she told,
you know, she told me that YouTube interview I did with her. Well, we were brought up to hate her to not to hate
ourselves, to be ashamed of ourselves. Yet, you know, being told that, you know, we are dirty, we cannot learn in
school and all that. And her mother was very courageous and she encouraged her
daughter to go to school to learn and she did do so. But I think that this is
this is the reality of the residential school. Not only was it uh discriminatory, but the residential
schools were found, we found out in the last few years actually assassinated or killed. Many of the young people we
we've we there's has been discovered uh un what they called unmarked graves in
various parts of Canada of young kids who were you know you know killed by the uh by the uh priests and the Catholic
church who which carried out this genocide real genocide on behalf of the
setter colony against the indigenous people. So this is something that uh I
think that we have to we in the west have to do not only to uh expose the the
reality in Tibet and China but also compare this to what happened what
really happened in the white settler colonies whether it's United States and Canada
you know on this point I visited some boarding schools last year because I've been to Shiang twice now and I went to
an elementary school. I think it was K through 8. I'm not sure. Uh I think that they have a different system in
different places. A lot of these kids, they come from down from mountains and you know they they live in villages
where there's only like 50 people. So it's very difficult to have a high quality educational system. And I also
asked about volunteerism. Are the kids forced to go? And they said no. The government comes by, they encourage
their kids to go to school and the kids usually volunteer. the families are like excited about the opportunity to be able
to go to such a school and learn. But when I went and I went to a few of these actually when I went to these schools,
I'm just thinking of one in particular. The kids were dressed in their traditional clothes and they were kids
from other it was a there was a shiny young a weaguer child there and that weaguer child was dressed in weaguer
clothing. They were not dressed like Tibetan. They were not dressed Han. They were not wearing jeans and a t-shirt, but they were actually wearing their own
ethnic groups clothes in a school largely made up of Tibetan kids, but you
know, no one was oppressed. Actually, the opposite. We got to see the kids playing and they were singing and
dancing, you know, traditional Tibetan songs. So, like there was no cultural
eraser. Their language is being taught. They're being taught Mandarin. Yes. But that's the national language that's
going to facilitate them going to college, them getting jobs nationally. This is a, you know, it'd be like a a
Navajo child in the United States learning Navajo and English. That's that makes sense. But, you know, obviously
only teaching them English would be eraser of their culture. In Tibet, kids are learning to read and write and speak
in Tibetan. Yes. I think we have to address like why do boarding schools exist in any country
in the world whether in any system whether it's capitalist or in China and that is an outlying areas where it's
difficult for kids to go to school you have boarding schools to facilitate the
uh kids going to school and learning when we visit that boarding school I specifically ask our host there uh and
the the kids as well do they have to stay there or can they go home No, they
have the choice depending how far the boarding school is from their home. They could go home every evening if they
like. They can go home for the weekend. And they told us most of them like to stay in the evenings and some even like
to stay in the weekends on a voluntary basis. Why? This way they can exchange with their teachers and learn more. So
it's, you know, once again it's the opposite of what we are told. You know, I went to a village that was
constructed by the government for extremely in uh impoverished people and
I went to visit some of their homes and talked to some of the people who lived there. They were relocated from other
really uh distant villages that didn't have access to roads that led to cities and stuff. And I asked the point among
this large group of people, hey, did they have the option of not coming? Could they have stayed in their original
doiciles? And they were confused by this. What do you mean? What do you mean? Did they have the option of
staying? Why would they want to stay? There's no water there. And they were really confused by this. I kept pushing
the point because it was really important for Westerners because of the discourse that's produced in Washington
DC to ask this question. And after like a minute of them trying to understand why this was an important question, they
were like, "Of course they had the option of staying, but why would no one stayed there? Like it's it's it's you
know they're living in squalor and now they have a home with two stories and three bedrooms and running water. Like
yeah they could have stayed but you know this was this was a fantastic opportunity and obviously everyone
jumped at that opportunity to have a modern home with their own estate and garden and all this stuff. It's
ridiculous the kind of things that come out of Washington DC. Yeah. um that narrative I one thing I
never um I I'm always astounded to hear that from the west uh trying to convince
the people of the world that the Tibetan should go back to the pre-1951
1959 situation. Hello. Like why would a Tibetan want to go back from where they
are now, part of a modern socialist state with infrastructure, health,
education, and complete freedom of religion and language? Why would they
want to go back to living in a shed, cow shed? I mean, hello. How can anyone actually go for that narrative? But uh
the the state is so powerful whether it's you know in the west and pushing
their narrative that some people actually can believe it. It's not really our fault. But it's up to people such as
yourself, your excellent reporting on the Tibetan region to undo that
narrative that China is carrying out genocide against the people of Tibet.
It's the opposite. You know, if there's any like one of the things that I notice in in China, as I mentioned in my
article, coming from Quebec, we're very sensitive about the issue of language and culture. You know, we're pretty much
fed up. Don't take it badly. But in Canada and Quebec, you know, anytime Lady Gaga comes to town, the whole town
is supposed to be talking about it or whatever. But a in in China uh we saw
how the Chinese government in collaboration with the local Tibetan authorities spent millions and millions
of Guan in developing the culture. We visited one cultural entity in Lassa
which is beautiful. People go stu people go there not only students but retired
folks they go there in order to practice their traditional instruments to sing
their traditional songs in their own language. So this is you know China is actually doing the opposite. Now uh you
know we also visit what has really um impacted me a lot uh with regards to the
fo uh manuscripts that were discovered and put into a special museum about a
few years ago. Now what is interesting in these feral manuscripts you have a
detailed account about the history of Tibet society its political system its
economic development etc. So you have that being placed in the hands of the
Tibetan people to know about their past. Now if China was interested in uh you
know erasure as you say and eliminating Tibetan people the first thing they have to do is to eliminate the the seeds of
where the people came from their history but the opposite has taken place as you and others who I visit have noticed.
I want to talk about the socialist angle of this because you've written for friend friends of socialists China uh
and your chapter is entitled Shiang's leap from surfom to socialism with Chinese characteristics. So in you know
practical normal everyday terms what is what is socialism with Chinese characteristics and what does it look
like in Shiang? Yeah, I'm I'm glad that you asked that question because uh in
Tibet, you know, you know, I've been interested in the whole socialism for many many decades and part of this
interest in socialism, one has to deal with on the one hand the collective and
the other hand individual initiative. This is very important. So in Tibet, you
know, we visited this startup enterprise type of entity and it was really
interesting in Lassa, just on the outskirts of Lassa. Anyone can become
part of this entity. All they have to do is bring their computer, their knowhow,
their interests and they can participate in this activity. And one of the things
that they invented, you know, that drew my attention that one of the startup
companies there invented a drone for the well-being of the of the people in the
in the productive sector and agricultural sector in the high mountains. And the drone are you are
drones are used there in those areas high alitude areas specially designed to
fly in high altitude areas in order to help with agriculture seating etc and
also you know GPS sort of mapping the area so people are aware of their of their own of their own situation there.
Now I think that you know like in this area in this place that we visited the
startup place outside of Lassa one thing that caught my attention people can go there they have access they could
develop their own initiative at the same time and I found personally I was not put off by this at all. I was happy. At
the same time, in order to to to be in this institute, you have to the all
applicants have to agree to the socialist orientation of China. The
Communist Party of China's uh overall uh uh movement to develop its its modern
Chinese state, etc. You know, you don't have to be you didn't have to be a member of the China of the Chinese
Communist Party, Communist Party of China, excuse me, but you could not have been expelled from the Communist Party of China. Well, some people in the West,
oh, that's terrible. This is state control. Come on. This is China finding
a way to solve this, you know, long tradition, long contradiction,
supposedly between the individual and the collective. how these individual students, young people in Tibet could
develop their own entrepreneurship, their own initiative and of course with that increase their income for them and
their family at the same time doing this in the context of the gold in China the
the rep people's republic of China of modernity developing a modern state and
socialism. So this was you know I would never I've always been interested in dealing with this issue but who would
have thought in Tibet I would find an excellent example of of socialism with
Chinese characteristic. It really came out very clear for me. I would love to go back there see it once again how that
drone and other inventions are taking place. It's a really it was a good example that's why I used it. I wanted
to ask you about regular, you know, when I was traveling around in the various cities, one thing I noticed is looking
at business signs or elevator signs and they would always be written in, you
know, Chinese or ping and sometimes English, but always with the Tibetan script underneath or above menus, uh,
elevator warning signs, uh, a lot of products have both of the languages on
the product. Even I saw when we were in uh Bachor Street which I think you went to there's like a there's a there's a
Pizza Hut there and the name of Pizza Hut is also written in the Tibetan language on the sign like what kind of
experiences like that did you have and just like moving around normally through society that were surprising.
Yeah, I think that that that really um um impacted me a lot as you described it
everything is in the local language of Tibet and etc. in addition to Han and you know you know coming from Canada of
course we also have the same thing in Quebec everything is English and French but it's very superficial you know
because while you have everything in English and French you know as I described in my book and in that in that
chapter in that book that the entire cultural domination of the United States
is there you know either you know in terms of we in Quebec we have a long
tradition of poetry history most recently sim uh filming etc many many
decades ago however the entire cultural
control is coming from the United States don't take it personally you know I love the United States but the the the
American uh control over our culture is terrifying firstly people get it
directly because we all have access to CNN for example you can't avoid it but even indirectly The Canadian state TV
just mirrors the US preoccupation with their culture, their singers, their
arguers, their films, etc. Whereas we in Quebec, we have a long tradition of
film, poetry, etc. But it's virtually nowhere to be seen. So you know the
issue of signs we have bilingual signs in Quebec or whatever but you know without the uh profound uh defense of
the people in this case the Tibetan people's culture and language is pretty superficial in my view but it is not the
case in Tibet is very profound you know I I remember seeing that when I went to British Columbia that some of
the signs were actually had English and Chinese and I was like wow this is unique to me because in California where
I'm from there's only English. There's no native languages. There's no French. There's no Chinese. There's no Spanish.
It's just English. So I, you know, coming to China, going to Inner Mongolia and seeing, wow, all the signs are in,
you know, Mongolian and Chinese. Or I go to Shinjzang, I see all the signs are in Weaguer and Chinese. Or I go to Shiang
and I see, oh, all the signs are in Tibetan and Chinese, Hanza. But, you know, in the United States that that
just does not exist at all. Um, you wrote an article in the Global Times which highlights how Xiang balances
tradition, nature, and progress. I was wondering if you could comment on that expand and talk about maybe a little bit
about the infrastructure that you saw in uh, Shisan. Yeah, I think that um as I
mentioned in my book and and you you're pointing out uh we took the train our group took our group took the train from
the neighboring um Chang Ching Hai province right next to Tibet from its
capital all the way to Lassa. It was a 20 uh I think it was a you know 22-hour
trip 2,000 kilometers and at times we were at the an altitude of around 5,000
ft which is half the altitude of Mount Everest. Now going through that
uh train trip, it reminded me to my 2006 trip to China when I visit Shien. And
coming from Quebec, once again, sorry might be a bit chauvinous, but driving in Quebec is a problem. You know, when
there's, you know, you don't have that in California, but you have snowstorms and all it's really hard to navigate. So
what I saw in Shian in 2006 that that dynasty there which which was
based the first dynasty that unified all of China amongst other things a unified
currency unified language but they also unified transportation system. So while
I was riding on that, you know, train for 22 hours, I thought back to my 2006
trip and the genius of the Chinese tradition and culture. And what they did
there in addition to currency is that they made it obligatory
that all of the horserawn carriages had the same axle width. Why? So when
driving through muddy uh uh uh roads, etc., they would not be endangered by
sliding from one to the other. So this completely changed the transportation system, the infrastructure. Why? In
order to further develop the Chinese state at that time, which is the
beginning of the state that we see it today, so people could better send goods
and services to all parts of China. And here we are, you know, 2,000 years later, in my mind, maybe it's
exaggerated, we have the same Chinese genius for uh, you know, working out the
the almost impossible task of healing a huge train from a neighboring province
to Lassa. So this is, you know, my view part of the Chinese tradition, the
culture, how they combine the the the history with the with the modernity as
we learned from the, you know, comparing the two dynasties 2,000 years ago and today,
you know, I was traveling in 2025 in the same region and I was up in the
mountains. We were going to a school and we were traveling for 3 hours along the side of this very of this kind of
small road next to a river. So the only thing to look at was either the hills above us or the the river below. And on
the trip we passed three hydro power dams. Basically every time we got to a
new place where it was possible to have a dam, China had built this gigantic
fully outfitted hydropower dam to provide you know natural energy from the
flow of the river to all of the local native inhabitants. And I was just like, wow. You know, the amount of
infrastructure here like is so otherworldly because you know, China has more hydro
power than any other country in the world, including the United States, my home country. But, you know, reflecting
on your comment about the history of China. One of the near mythical things that ancient Chinese people did that
Chinese people like to dwell on is the the you know the control of the Yellow River where they put dams and and and
rerouted it in some ways to make it uh convenient for people to prevent flooding and to help agriculture. China
has a very long history of mega projects that date back two millennia ago. And
today we're seeing the same kinds of things, you know, developing uh in modern China as well. Yeah, I think I I
in 2006 my first trip I visit the the three gorgeous dam uh dam as well and
it's really an amazing engineering feat you know as that train going from you know you know several thousand
kilometers from one province to the other but you know this is I think this is part of the tradition that the
Chinese have of mega projects that you know it was carried out differently of course 2,000 years ago the way it's
carried out now but it's this is part of the Chinese history Chinese culture That's why the United States in my view
cannot defeat China because China see Chinese see things from their
perspective of thousands of years ahead of time and this is an important thing
uh for the Chinese people to preserve that tradition of always you know
looking forward and taking into account their history and their tra tradition
while carrying out that very historic move of developing China toward for
modernity. You know, you also wrote that um I I
want to use this. You said that it's the pres preservation of culture there is proactive,
wellfunded and systematic. So, what surprised you most about, you know, the
way that China goes about preserving, you know, native cultures?
Well, uh one of the places that we visit, I think I mentioned, I'll just repeat it rapidly. We we visit this
cultural center in which um you know young people, older people, retired
folks, they had the leisure to go there to practice their in instrument to sing
their songs, wear their uh traditional garb etc. So you know how did this take
place? The central government in collaboration with the local authorities invested so much money in that cultural
center as well as other similar centers without throughout the whole region. So people are able to develop their their
culture and be proud of it. You know, one of the, you know, the the main narrative that is used against the
people's republic of China and places like Tibet is is to den denigrate the
Tibetan people that so that they do not look upon themselves as important modern
actors in society. But in China, the opposite is taking place. You know, they have been educated. They are being
educated and they're proud of being both Tibetan as well as the Chinese socialist
project, Chinese great leap into modernity. So this, you know, how would
anyone why would anyone want to go back to, you know, feudalism and ser them
that existed before the liberation of China of Tiban? Sorry. You know, you mentioned modernity and
acting actors in modernity having agency. I was talking to and I feel you know this is my own misperception
because I'm so uh warped by western ideas about how what we should look at for I was talking to a Tibetan man and
he had actually represented uh Shiang and the Tibetan culture at the United
Nations in Geneva and I was asking him about ancient Chinese sorry ancient
Tibetan culture and how is it being preserved and music and how is it being preserved and he turned to me and he
said you know we have modern us, we Tibetans, we have modern artists and we have modern music too. Like you should
be also exploring modern Tibetan rap and modern Tibetan songs and modern Tibetan
cult like because we've we've recently created you know new cultural aspects of
of our people in the last 5 or 10 years which maybe borrowing from before but are also contemporary then we're not
just a people who live in our ancient past. And so I kind of oh yeah yeah that's a really good point. Maybe when
my next opportunity did I go there, I should be looking at youth culture and like mo contemporary artists because I I
had overlooked that in my American con conceptualization of trying to see how
well their ancient history is preserved. I'm essentially trying to make them out as you know people trying to make out
Americans as cowboys or something like they have a whole other new modern version of the how they present
themselves and this like are you guys okay? Do you still have your horse in buggy? Like is it doesn't always
necessarily the right way to you know interact with these people? Just to to build just uh a bit on what
you said when I was in last I noticed on the one hand you have uh you know Tibetan monks people who are practicing
their religion speaking their own language etc. At the same time side by side we have the kids on skateboards you
know and I didn't hear any rap. I don't, you know, I'm not familiar with Tibetan rap, but just the fact that kids are
running around on skateboards and all that in modern garb side by side with the uh Tibetans in their Bu Buddhist
garb. It just, you know, another example of what you're saying, the both things
go hand in hand. I I I hope that you're in one of your trips, you could talk about the Tibetan modern adaptation of
rap and songs, etc., uh you know so that the young people there while practicing
their own religion their own language etc can also participate in you know
world culture so to speak regarding music etc so that would be great if you
could report on that I would I myself would be very interested in reading about or watching your video on that
yeah I'd like to go to a modern mall you know just to like look around and see what kind of like you know because there's a whole other angle to this than
just ancient versions of their culture. You know, you've described the area as shrouded in mystery and misinformation.
So, after witnessing, you know, firsthand, what is what do you think is the biggest lie or misrepresentation
about the about these people and why does it matter?
I would say the most important lie regarding that region would be the
because it comes up regularly is the issue of the so-called boarding schools and that was a real eye openener to
visit as you visited you know boarding schools even an outlying areas I I would
say that is the most important misconception the most important narrative there uh regarding uh Tibet
and as well as religion and and uh freedom of expression etc. I mean you know freedom of expression what what
kind of freedom of expression they had before 1959 when they were living in a cow shed for generation against after
generation unable to speak their own language unable to read their own language with zero human rights etc. So
why would anyone want to go back to that when they have tasted the benefits of
modern socialist China. So I would say that the overall main narrative that we
hear about unfortunately is regarding the boarding school, you know, the the uh so-called uh cultural genocide
against the Tibetan people. It's completely false. It's the opposite has taken place. We're seeing the
flourishing of the Tibetan people, their langu
their self-esteem. Like I go back to when I interviewed Ellen Gabriel as a leader of the one of the of Canadian
indigenous people in Canada. They were taught to have no self-esteem at all.
Think themselves as dirty, incapable of of of doing anything while in Tibet. The
opposite is taking place. self-esteem of themselves as Tibetans as well as
part of that great Chinese nation that is building something that the whole world can see is superior to what we
have in the capitalist west. I want to talk about Cuba. You know, you
have done extensive lifelong uh investigations and research into Cuba. Could you tell us a little bit about
Cuba's socialist model and how people misinterpret it in uh other parts of the world, especially in North America?
That that's an important issue. I think it's very complicated. In order to help myself figure that out, I read a very
interesting article about a year ago uh by uh um uh for what is his name? Um oh
yeah, Enfueng, a well-known Chinese specialist. The article that he wrote
for an international magazine is 500 years of socialism. That is from utopian
socialism to the current socialism. You know, I'll send you that link. It's really interesting. And in it, he says
how the Chinese experience went through ups and downs, zigzags,
but along the same path towards socialism. And then he said there are other countries who are doing having
similar experience. And he gave the example of Venezuela and Cuba. Venezuela of course before the January 3rd n
January 3rd attack against Maduro. I was there in Caracus just before that they
were succeeding there you know in developing their own their own type of socialism as as Chavez says you know
socialism of the 21st century you know everything was plentiful. there was food
and clothing, you know, and education. That's why the United States attacked
Venezuela, not because it was a failed state, because it was succeeding, as this scholar pointed out, and developed
their own form of socialism. The same thing is regarding Cuba. Now, Cuba, of course, is very different. One cannot
compare Cuba and China. They're completely different. As you know, China is a powerful state, you know, and has
that long history and all that. But there's one thing in common between China and Cuba in my view is that in
1949 you had a armed revolution led by Malong against the backward forces of of
United States and Japan etc and established revolutionary political
power on October 1st 1949. Cuba led by Fidel Castro against a US
backed Batista regime on January 1st 1959 organized as well an armed
revolution to take control of Cuba. So that is what they have in common. They
both have had armed revolutions and they both countries both system have the
ability and the desire to maintain that political troll control and not give it
one inch to the United States or the west with regards to their right to have their own system. That's what both
countries have in common. And China is going through a very difficult situation now. I know I was just there. I just
came back a few days ago. It's very difficult but you know if Trump you know I spoke to all of my colleagues there
who are all members of the communist party of Cuba revolution all that I asked look what what's going to happen
is if is United States going to intervene against Cuba they all said the same thing both options are on the table
United States may not intervene or United States may intervene militarily
but they all said the same thing if they intervene militarily we will defend ourselves we will you
Even if it means giving up our life, we will give we will defend our sovereignty and the right to develop our own system.
And when I was there, I I heard President Miguel Diaz Canel, he said on
several occasions in the course of the three-day meetings we had with him, he said, "Look, we are nation of peace. We
don't want war, but if the United States attacks, we will defend ourselves." And this is, I think, really important. And
China of course is also example that they did defend themselves in an entirely different situation. But in
that context I have to say and you in your book which was written before the
current energy crisis in in Cuba you wrote about how China is helping Cuba
regarding the need to develop an alternative to fossil fuel using solar
panels and other alternative methods. that was you know you wrote that before the energy crisis but it's I just read
that chapter again it's very important to take into account now the role that China in helping Cuba to develop an
alternative solar panel I mean you know Cuba is part of a member associate
member of bricks it's not just in words you know China is helping Cuba sometimes
I'm on a webinar with you know progressive people and they oh you know Cuba you know where's China where's huh
China is helping is helping Cuba more than any other country. There was an
excellent article recently in uh friends of socialist China indicating the amount
of investments that China is taking taking is doing in Cuba to develop solar
panels all over the country. And just two days ago I read that in a small
since San Fraos is a small town in the middle of the country they are also developing solar panels there. And just
a few hours ago, I read that China is helping Cuba in very remote areas in
Trinidad, which is a very remote mountainous areas in Trinidad to have individual homes have access to solar
panels. So here you have two countries, two different system, but China I have to I have to underline if I may the
important role that China is playing in helping Cuba and against the so the
narrative from some people on the left. Well, where's China? China's not helping Cuba. Come on. No, China is helping
Cuba. Cuba. I want to talk about your book uh Cuba's electoral process, democracy in motion.
um and relating to Cuba and its neighbors. Uh what key lessons about
socialism did your time in Cuba teach you about you know their democratic processes and what is your analysis
today? Well, the the situation of the Cuban political system is quite
complicated has developed over over the time. But I would say that one of the
features of the Cuban political system that one has to take into account now in
2026 and going forward is elections are important etc. But I think now as United
States is attempting to foster some kind of a color revolution in Cuba or foster
some kind of an incident in Cuba. Oh, there's chaos in Cuba. Donald Trump has
to intervene to save Cuba from the chaos and all that. What is going to save Cuba
is not are not elections as such. But I would say the most important thing is
something I don't think we we have that that much in China is the local defense
committees in the neighborhoods in in in Cuba which I dealt with in my book. But
now several years later I would say this is the most important thing. For example, quite quite concretely, United
States and its allies in Cuba tried to foster a a color revolution incident in
on July 11th, 2021 to be followed up by something bigger a
few months later, but it was stopped how not by election, it was stopped by the neighborhood committees that exist at
neighborhoods all over the country saying we do not want to call a revolution. So that US allies in those
areas they live there they saw for their own eyes that mass movement of people saying we do not we have problems but we
have to deal with it our own way. We do not want a US le color revolution. So I
think that this is something that people have to take in account this feature of the Cuban political political system in
2026. Wow. That is a remarkable uh accounting.
I I've not heard of that in the media. I guess you know the US is really keeping us in the dark about these kinds of things. I'm glad that you're covering
these sorts of things. Um you wrote a book about Cuban US relations. Uh could
you what is the media war against Cuba? You know what misrepresent? We were
talking about misrepresentations of China's Shiang and the Tibetan people. How does the United States obfuscate and
prevent us from understanding Cuba and what the Cuban people want? I would say this may seem um difficult
to to grasp for some people but uh because people always are we're always talking about Trump's aggressive
attitude against Cuba first first mandate as well as now but you know
myself and speaking to my Cuban colleagues who as I mentioned are all members of the communist party of Cuba
revolutionaries and all that another factor that Cuba has uh to deal with not
so much not as in China is when the diplomatic relations were reestablished
in 2014 between Cuba and United States after many decades. The uh the embassies were
reopened in the respective capitals of Havana and Washington after many decades. This is followed by the visit
of Barack Obama to Cuba in March 2026. So how do I deal
with that? I had, you know, a critical view of that. But what I did is I interviewed I interviewed people, Cuban
journalists, experts on that whole issue. And I have a whole section there
where I reproduce verbatim the interviews with them. And you know for
you know you're very familiar with China. China doesn't have that problem. But when you know when when Obama
visited Cuba in 2026, it was presented unfortunately as a very positive thing.
But what Obama and he Obama had the right in Havana to give his views on TV
to the Cuban people. And basically what he said was, well, you know, we're done with the uh policy of aggression. We are
now going for seduction. I mean, he he didn't say we're going for sedu. what you know he said in a polite way Cuba
has to change it has to become capitalist it has to give up its socialist ideas and all that so this and
you know you have a feature in Cuba which you don't see in China and I deal with this openly in my book in
collaboration with my Cuban colleagues like one thing that I noticed in Cuba over the last few years there are people
in Havana walking around with clothes uh
with a American flag, you know, like shorts and t-shirts with American flag. I don't think you see that in China at
all. But and in Cuba, yes, it exists in Cuba before the Obama's visit. And I
have to say, unfortunately, this has an increase since the Obama visit. So Cuba
is dealing with a very situation. On the one half, you have Trump with his
policy of aggression. On the other hand, you have this underlying push by the
what I call the Obama followers of trying to get Cuba uh by way of
seduction. I mean, what when Trump said made his famous uh statement a few
months ago that you know, we're going to take over Cuba whether it's by force or
in a friendly way. He wasn't completely wrong because the for the way the the
path of force was used by Trump and other governments before that. But the
the friendly way was also used by by Obama. And many of my Cubans friends
tell me that the that the Obama attitude of seduction is actually more dangerous,
but you don't see it coming. You know, and this is one thing that I've dealt with in my whole life as a writer and
journalist. what I call my opposition to the third way. You know, neither neither
neither Beijing nor Washington, neither Havana nor Washington. In my view, these
middle of the roaders, this is my view, it's not, you know, unanimous amongst people on the left or progressive
forces. But in my view this these middle of the roaders or or centrists as I call
them are actually more dangerous than the open imperialist because they are using the narrative but in a disguise
form in order to force Cuba to give up its sovereignty and give up its own socialist system. So, this is a very
complicated situation in Cuba and uh hopefully I know that they're going to
keep on one thing that Cuba has in favor of it now is Trump has his hands full
with Iran. You know, he really h had a shellacking out of Iran. I I don't think
he's ready to carry out a an aggressive activity towards Cuba, but if they do,
watch out. Cubans are ready to defend themselves. Wow. Um, we're close to end of time, so
I just want to ask you one last question. Whether how do you think people should learn about socialism in
practice? Uh, whether it be through your books or your reporting on Shiang or your Cuba expertise, where do you want
people to start? And what is one big takeaway from your life's work that you want to leave them with? Uh my main
takeaway from my life's work I I mentioned that just before but just reiterate is that in this sense I'm
different than many others. While I oppose of course US imperialism, I also very much oppose to what I call the
centrist or middle of the roaders and I think this is very important as we go forward and uh people could you know
access my uh website it's arnologus.com um I have my books there also available
for free and PDF uh version and uh my life's work I would say is what what I
have what you know what bugs me a lot are people on the left who say, "Oh, I'm
a socialist." Yeah, but they oppose socialism as it exists in China or
socialism as exists in Cuba or socialism as exists in Venezuela. So, what kind of
a socialist are that? You know, they they they oppose real existing socialisms. That is my pet peeve. And
this is what I try to uh oppose. I've opposed all of my life and I keep on
opposing it right to the end of my life. these, you know, these so-called socialists who who do refuse. I mean,
how can anyone, you know, Cuba is complicated, I admit, but how can anyone call themselves a socialist and not
admire or, you know, promote or take into
account the Chinese example of socialism, you have to be crazy not to see it. So
this is my you know this is my lifelong pet peeve and my lifelong goal in life
is to make sure that the those people who call themselves socialists but oppose existing socialism whether exists
in China or Cuba trying to do it as best as it can under difficult difficult
circumstances. That's a really really great point. Thank you so much for your time Arnold August.
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure being with you. Hopefully we'll see each other in China one day.
• Is Tibetan Being Erased? 
