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贾扬特·班达里：西方已忘记自由需要秩序

已有 44 次阅读2026-5-12 18:18 |个人分类:Jayant Bhandari

There's something called political correctness and all my friends are afraid of speaking up because they know
that if they say anything wrong uh their job they might lose their job and they
might start losing their friends and families. So there has been this uh fear
in the society for a very long time. And this is what I tell my American and Canadian friends today that while they
might claim that they have the freedom of his speech, they probably have less freedom of his speech today than people
in East Asia have. What happened to Charlie Kirk is not the kind of things that happen. Before we dive in, a quick whisper about
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Because around here we scope things, build things, and fund things. In that order, Ghostfounder, the quiet engine
behind loud breakthroughs. Today, we're sitting down again with Jian Pandari,
one of the most thought-provoking voices we've had on our show. Um, in our last conversation, Jian challenged us to
rethink freedom, truth, and the role of culture in shaping society. And since
then, we've had the chance to join him in Vancouver at his capitalism and morality conference um just last month
um where voices like Rick Rule, Maxim Bernier, Stefan Canella, and Amy Wax and
others push the boundaries of our debate. And today we're diving deeper into East
and West, freedom and fences, and how truth seeeking plays out in real life.
Jay, welcome back. Thank you so much for taking the time again. Uh Lovis and Jason, thanks uh very much again for
having me. Yeah, we're really excited. So cool. Now we get to speak to you twice. So um
yeah, Giant, just to kick us off, right? It's been about a year since we spoke last, I think. So I just wanted to ask,
you know, time flies, but in this period, you know, how how have you been? And what are some things that have been
on your radar since we last spoke? Anything new that has left an impression
on how you view the world? Um Well, uh I mean the world is moving fast towards uh instability. Um and in a
way I'm happy that Trump is the president of the US. Uh I have been uh a
big bit of a fan of Trump. Not that he's a saint or not that uh he's the perfect
guy to be the president, but compared to the other alternatives, I'm I'm really pleased that he's the president. But
moreover, uh the the thing that matters to me most is that he has a mind of his
own. Uh he thinks for himself and he speaks out what he thinks rather than so
many robotic people who have no views of their own who basically regurgitate the
same stuff that uh the peers they have say. Okay. So when you say that you glad
Trump is at the helm, it's from a you want the west to do well, right? like you want the west to to to weather this
period of instability in a good way and it's good for everyone if they can do that. I'm I'm assuming
absolutely I I want the west to delay its degradation to as much as possible.
Now the fact that the west will continue to degrade is baked in the cake. uh there will be a civil war, there will be
massive social conflicts but because of the right policies some of the right policies that Trump has uh I think the
degradation will get slowed down or and get delayed but again uh after 2 years
or 3 years things will revert back to the Biden era and
gates of uh the country will open again and um demog
will kickstart uh again as well. Well, so when you say civil war, do you mean in the US or do you mean in the
west in general like maybe Europe and America splitting up? What do you mean when you say that?
Uh I I I think a civil war is inevitable in the whole of the western society.
And the reason uh Jason is that only homogeneous societies manage to stay
stable. U they homogeneous societies are only the only societies that have a hope
of having high trust. Um the US is now close to uh 50% people of European
ethnicity. Uh which means that there are now uh so many people from all over the
world uh living in the United States. And when things are good, all is good. But when things start uh getting a bit
shaky um social conflicts will emerge very rapidly. When the tide goes out you
will see the rough surface of the society and there will be a civil war uh
primarily because uh Jason uh European ethnic Europeans are not tribybally
minded. These are the people who uh who believe who have risen over centuries
above a tribal and mindset the mindset of kinship and groups. Uh they think
more in terms of seeking the truth rather than catering to the to what is
good for their groups. Whereas people of the third world simply don't get it.
They are not interested in truth. They are interested in catering to demagoguery and catering to what they
think would please their groups. Loves, this is so interesting, right? Because just last night I sent you that
um tweet. I don't know. Do you guys know this uh is she a congresswoman? This she
just put out a tweet yesterday, I think in response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And not only that, but
also the response of other people in the United States that are celebrating this
guy getting killed. And she wrote something that cuz from my knowledge, not having lived in America, I think
she's pretty uh popular, right? And I've got this tweet here. I'll just read it
to you. Um she said, "There's nothing left to talk about with the left. They
hate us. They assassinated our nice guy who actually talked to them peacefully, debating ideas. Then millions on the
left celebrated and made clear they want all of us dead. To be honest, I want a n
a peaceful national divorce. Our country is too far gone and too far divided and
it's no longer safe for any of us. Then she goes on it's a pretty long tweet but
I guess what she means here when she says I want a peaceful national divorce giant is that what you are
referring to here? Well, I don't think a divorce is possible uh because u people
are all intermingled with each other uh in in terms of a space and urban areas
are now predominantly uh people of Europe non-European ethnicity. So you
can pretty much look for any random uh city in North America or actually
anywhere in the western world and I cannot think of any city which is not uh
which does not have a majority of people of non-European ethnicity.
Without city without control over cities you can't really run the modern economy.
So u I I think what the west is headed towards is a civil war and that is
inevitable. Um the only hope uh would be for um for the western society to
completely close its gates for immigration uh and also encourage a
massive number of people to leave uh the west. uh and this is why I think people
who are in support of re reigration is is it re-immigration or remigration
whatever they call it is actually the most valid and most peaceful path to uh
avoiding a conflict. But when you have close to half of your population made up
of people who will uh be on one side of the civil conflicts uh you can't really
expect all those people to leave the US within the next few years. I think what
will actually happen is that they will vote to bring back a person like Biden in three or four years time. Sorry,
three years time now. Um and and also demographically the US will have shifted by then. uh you have um uh millions of
new voters from the uh of the kind who vote for the leftist parties joining the
voting list. So the majorities of European people is falling very rapidly
in the US and elsewhere in the west. So in a way I mean thinking about cause and
effect on all this right I always think that incentives um
have many uh un unforeseen like the law of unforeseen consequences basically right so when I try to just look through
what you're saying a bit um and then so echoing kind of what said in one of his
books if you dismantle the um welfare state a lot of the incentive for
immigration be it legal or otherwise, right? May may go away. Omega by the wayside. So, and
when I think about that, then I think about, you know, Doge, like Elon and and Trump trying to cut
uh deeply into government budgets, but it seemed like that they got I mean, they had some successes, but overall, it
doesn't sound to me like it was the breakthrough success that they were hoping for.
Yeah, absolutely, Loves. it isn't going to work because more than 50% of Americans vote for the welfare system.
Uh because they vote for the welfare system, how can you reduce the welfare system uh without with they those people
voting into the system? Um now clearly Trump would have I think wanted to
reduce uh the welfare payments but as you can see with Dodge all they could try to do was to cut down some of the
costs. There's no way they can cut down on welfare payments, money that is going
to people individually. If you try to, if Trump wants tries to cut down those
payments, you can be absolutely sure there will be protests on the streets in
in the US tomorrow morning. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, I mean, we're seeing protests already for all kinds of
things. I mean, there's uh what the National Guards deployed to different cities. Um, it's a bit unclear to me
whether that is truly because of safety or if there's something else uh some other agenda behind it that might be
more changes in financial policy or whatnot. But I mean it's super hard to
know with this stuff, right? You can only speculate. But I guess one thing we can say from
all these things is the instability in the system is growing, right? Nobody would deploy the National Guard to to
cities if things were super peaceful. Yeah. Yeah. And this I mean in this before um this assassination, right? And
then the crazy thing is so I I'm almost completely off social media in my normal
day today. So I didn't see it at all. Uh Jason actually told me about it. He's like, "Oh, did you see?" And I was like,
"But no, I hadn't seen." So then um You mean what? About the assassination?
Yeah, about the assassination. Mhm. But then within a few days, right? So now stuff is on my feed and it it's so
difficult to tell. Um there's a lot of celebration and hate. There's a lot of
grief, but then there's also a lot of like, oh, this was all fake, right? This was all staged. Uh they killed the role.
They didn't kill the man, etc. And then there is some pretty it's to the point
where it's not distinguishable for me whether or not it's AI generated, CGI or
or whatnot, right? So all this to contribute I mean who like at the end
when I think about it I'm like well who cares who what's truth the point is this is working to divide us right in either
case so if it was all fake by somebody then their goal would clearly be division if it was real then it was also
the goal was division right so it's um it's at a point where it almost doesn't matter [laughter]
which is pretty giant thing about multicultural ism, right? It's also the way the a culture
reacts to a situation uniquely because of its culture. And when you have in a
system where there's a lot of extra buffer, you can then get different cultures to live together and it's okay.
But once you start getting squeezed, then people start to revert and or
giant, am I on the right track here? Uh yeah also also I think uh Jason um the
because of this diversity you because you have a diversity as a given um the
political and social process is such that political correctness becomes very important in the US uh schooling systems
become uh propaganda machines because now you have more than 50% and actually in this case more than 50% people in on
average in schools from um non-European backgrounds. Um so it creates all kinds
of conflicts and lack of trust within the society and it also creates lack of
trust within people of every uh uh se
kind. So even within people of European ethnicity it will create low trust
because that is the mechanism that is the cultural mechanism that happens when the over overweening culture is of low
trust it permeates the psyche of people and that's how they conduct with each
other even if otherwise they would have conducted themselves in a high trust fashion. So u I I think that is what's
happening u in the US and uh I again I don't see how uh Trump can do achieve
anything else than delay the complete breakdown of the social system in the
US. And when you say US, I I would say the trends are pretty similar in most western countries, right? Not only the
US, if you talk about Canada, you talk about even Australia and most of Europe,
Western Europe, right? Absolutely, Jason. And also the US is the spine of the Western world. Whether
you accept it or not, US is the spine. And if the US goes, everything else will
fall apart. European countries don't really have capabilities to defend themselves. So is probably the case with
Canada and Australia. So uh these people are dependent on the US u and if the US
goes everything in the west will go. Uh you know clearly in my view western people people of European ethnicity or
uh the the fountain head of civilization. Giant you just got cut off for a moment just now. So you were saying they are
the fountain head of civilization and then you got cut off. Yeah. So um so the civil war in my view
will happen at some point of time and a lot of people of uh non European
ethnicity will uh either leave or they will suffer in the civil conflicts. This
this will not be a uh a fun moment for most people including for people of
European ethnicity. Do you think that a little bit of this is just the
the cycles right where you know there's this there's this meme with um what is it soft men bring hard times hard times
make hard men hard men bring good times and it kind you know that's an oversimplification but there's something
to this historic cycle when that where the west has had it very good for very
long um pretty peaceful period pretty prosperous period and this is just kind
of inevitably what comes Next. Uh well, Lois, everything gets old with
time. Japan has become a bit oldish. Uh Korea has become a bit oldish. Uh
Singapore uh uh and Hong Kong have become oldish with time. Uh but what the
west has done is that they have done irreparable damage to to themselves by
destroying their homogeneity. So their core society is no longer the society
that they had in the past. So Japan, Singapore, Korea even if they have
become oldish in terms of cultural values in fact in in in in the sense that people might have got habituated to
prosperity uh and might have become intellectually lazy with time. The fact
is that these people when they wake up they'll they'll hit the road the right way. They will they will restart the
process. uh whereas the problem with the western society is that they actually
have people in their societies who don't fit in who don't want to fit in and who
actually have a psychology which goes against the western ethos and this is
actually a product of what Jason was talking about which is that there are a
lot of people who are celebrating the murder of Charlie Kirk. I mean that's
absolutely outrageous. Um I mean I don't I I don't want anyone to be murdered
whether that person is a woke or a leftist or or or a conservative. Um I
think what we what the western ethos tell you is that you should be able to come out in the open and discuss uh
verbally uh what you believe in rather than assassinate other people. Uh
killing other people is the ethos of the woke people. These are the people who
are immoral, who don't believe in anything and they don't really have an argument on their side. So the only way
out for them is to assassinate other people. I wonder right giant Loves whether we're at some sort of a pivotal
moment in history because this you know when Trump nearly got assassinated
not so many people commented to me about the topic but this time I have friends
in um Australia friends in Singapore they're messaging me saying that it's
really impacting them very hard like uh they don't they they it's like uh
They're trying to understand why this has happened. Um they feel like, hey,
you know, they don't identify with somebody like a Trump, but they could identify with somebody that was around
their age just trying to have discussions on difficult topics, right? So I think uh giant what you said about
America being a spine and the whole idea of America is I think built around this
thing called free speech and the the ability to share ideas and to discuss
them and when something like that gets ended so violently I think it's a real
shock to everybody's psychology of what is the society we're
living in it. Yeah. And that Jason that so that fear has been in the US and Canadian society
for a very long time. Uh there's something called political correctness and which all my friends are afraid of
speaking up because they know that if they say anything wrong uh their job
they might lose their job and they might start losing their friends and families. So uh there has been this uh fear in the
society for a very long time and this is what I tell my American and Canadian friends today that while they might
claim that they have the freedom of his speech uh they probably have less
freedom of his speech today than people in East Asia have where um
what happened to Charlie Kirk is not the kind of things that happen. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a nice uh
segue, Jump, before we go uh into East Asia for some more uh uplifting
thoughts. [laughter] I wanted to uh uh talk you with you a
little bit about um your most recent installment of your seminar, Capitalism
and Morality. Um and so, you know, given the chance that that you're the host of
it all, what surprised you the most in this uh in this installment? Was there
uh any particular idea that you walked away with that really stuck out? Yes. And that has nothing to do with the
seminar, Loves. My seminar got started more than half an hour late because the
uh IT guy wasn't there. Uh the IT guy arrived 35 minutes late. There was no
coffee available in the morning. Uh and this is the kind of dysfunctionality you
should expect. And I tell you Canada is becoming increasingly dysfunctional uh because of the kind of people you bring
into the society. Um now you can't trace that dysfunctionality to an individual
here because what happens uh why dysfunctionality happens is because uh
thousands of people or hundreds or tens of people make micro compromises. Small
small compromises start making happening is small cracks h exist throughout the
system and the system keeps breaking down all the time and you can't really
pinpoint where that u the the the the critical area where that breakdown of
the system happened. So usually what you have in the western society what I
assume in a expect in a good organization is uh redundancies which is that people take people at the
operational level take initiative to figure out what they should be doing how they should be doing even if they are
not properly told. So that creates redundancies or there would be other people who are
very uh motivated to do do their job and they would ensure that these things
don't happen even if it is not their responsibility to do the these kind of
things. So unfortunately dysfunctionality is increasingly become
a part of the Canadian um business fabric and uh and uh things
will fall apart is keep falling apart things will keep going wrong planes will
fall off the sky and you won't be able to know why they fell off the sky. So
unfortunately that is in a very interesting manner the most interesting
part of uh this seminar and my prediction is lost that your electricity
and internet will become unstable with time. uh and the reason is that there
are thousands literally thousands of people involved in the pro process of
producing electricity in fact producing coal or uranium or whatever to that
electricity getting to you any uh any weak link in this process will create
problems for you and those problems already exist. the the system for now is
so good and so full of redundancies that those um those problems don't happen. Uh
but eventually they will come to surface as well. I I I wouldn't be surprised if they start happening within the next 2
three four years. Yeah, I mean we we've seen some system level events already, right? Uh not not
long ago all of Portugal and twothirds of Spain went black, right?
Um and it's actually it's interesting because so living in Germany I have no recollection of blackouts or brownouts.
Um but there's many reasons for that right and in then when I moved to the US
to study in 2008 9 time frame um in the summer it's actually quite common
because you know it's so hot everybody's running their AC 24/7 and so the load in the system is so high and when you go
out in the street the infrastructure many places it looks like you're in Thailand right it's just telephone pole
like wooden poles and wires strung everywhere and I always thought to myself, I was like, "Wow, it's so much
neater in Germany, you know." So, Germany's making a whole other uh size of mistakes. I'm not saying one one or
the other. I'm just saying it it it has actually been like like blackouts have been part of uh the American experience
for a long time. And it's interest I think this must be very rare in a first world country to have such a tolerance
for for systematic failure like that. Yeah. And Lois, you know, Germans and Swiss are very perfectionist people.
They really do a good job. And that is why the watches that are made in
Switzerland or some of the high technology stuff, mechanical stuff that gets made in northern part of Europe
cannot be copied elsewhere. I remember my dad used to have a Swedish uh
printing machine and we I got my dad to buy an exact copy of that made in India
um for 1/5ifth of the price um and um it was exactly the same copy uh however uh
you know a small cog would break down one day and then a a chain will break
the other day or electrical wire would would burn out someday and eventually
the machine wasn't working and we had to throw away the machine. We had to sell it for junk. Um and that is what happens
and this is why uh Sweden the whole of north north Europe and Switzerland are
so good because these people are perfect perfectionists and they do such a good
job. I worked for a uh Swiss company for for a couple for two three years and the
if the if a cable was loose somewhere the CEO would come down and make sure it
was uh at the right place and I used to uh I you know that wasn't some I found
it a bit hilarious but now I understand that when you operate in a complex system you have to take care of every
small things because then if you have a million of things uh that can go wrong
even if there's a very low risk you don't want those things to go wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So you know um with what you
asked me in the in the beginning right so actually so speaking of risk right so
many people assess risks wrong and I think Nim TB writes about this quite a bit with the black swan events and so
I've had a really firsthand experience recently right on my way home from your conference I assumed that being denied
entry in the US uh was a very very low probability event
um which it which it is, right? It's a super low probability event for me in my situation with my passport, etc. But
that doesn't mean that the outcome is not catastrophic for my life, right? So,
you know, I'm I'm okay. I'm just saying I I made a misjudgment because I I kind
of equal well, the probability is so low. So, in my mind, it was a low risk,
right? But it but it's not it's a ma it's a huge risk, very impactful event.
the risk of occurrence is small but that's not that's not the same thing and it's it's very easy to mistake the two
right and so I think this is how this then happens that you get these system level failures people like ah the chance
of this happening is a fraction of a percent and it's like yeah but if it does happen you're screwed [laughter] so
so you need to have these perfectionists uh looking into that right that there's no other way
and western society is so complex that you can't really have people in your
chair chain of command or at operational level who make micro compromises. Uh
because these micro compromises comp compound and will make your society
extraordinarily dysfunctional eventually. As you rightly said, US very likely already is in certain ways
dysfunctional. uh and uh Europe will get there because uh so far at the operational levels
there were probably not enough people from the third world but their culture will hit the operations eventually.
Yeah. I mean you can see it in several places I think. Gian so you've been uh working traveling
extensively in East Asia as well. So when you say you know uh people from the north of Europe can do something and cop
you often say copying is hard right? Uh so in India you buy this printing
machine for a fifth of the cost but then it ends up wasting you money because you can't get it to work properly. How is
your experience like for say Japan or China or Korea when you compare that to
to to India because they are also 50 60 years ago were very far behind the curve
but then they've caught up so massively and in some areas some people would even argue that they are at the forefront
now. So what what's your view on these things? Well, Japanese are actually in many ways
very similar to uh Germans and Swiss in terms of their commitment to work. Uh
they are devoted to their work and you don't really from what I see and I have
spent a lot of time in Japan and Korea and China. What I see is that these
people uh have a pride associated with their work. uh they are not constantly
thinking about whether their bosses are looking overlooking them or not. They still want to do a good job and uh and I
think in that is why uh Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Taiwan have
become so prosperous. They are among the most stable, most uh prosperous
countries in the world today. Of course, China is still emerging, but it will eventually become a very prosperous
country for the simple fact um Jason that uh people at a very low level of
operations in these in China uh look motivated. Now they might not be think
feeling the same thing inside but they look motivated enough that they when
when I ask them for something they have a smile on their face and they want to do their job and that's what matters at
the end of the day you know as Lovis can probably confirm and I I spend a lot of
time in Germany and Switzerland a lot of workers in Switzerland and Germany are
under a huge amount of pressure uh but at the end of the day the pride in their work makes them do the right thing. So
they will accept the pressure. They might hate their bosses. They might hate their companies. But in the
[clears throat] end when they are doing some work, they know that it is almost like a religious exercise for them that
it what they are doing should be done right and that is what I think is happening in China today. The reason why
uh some of the very high technology equipment are now being made in China um
you know a lot of electronics that we now use comes from China. A lot of mechanical things will are are starting
to come from China. So China is emerging because though their big organizations,
their mega organizations work and they work because the individual there is
fired up to do what is right irrespective of whether he's bossed around or not. And some of their bosses
are not really the nicest people. They don't treat their workers the best way. But is still because the culture
inculcates pride in their work. the fact that they should look at their work as a
as a service to god in a way that they do a good job irrespective of uh who is
overlooking them. Yeah. My feeling um visiting China there with Jason was that they absolutely they
have the self-respect in a sense because in a way if you if you have pride in your own work also has to do with that
you're I think has to a lot to do with self-respect in a sense because it's like yeah I may not this may not be my
perfect situation but I want to make the best of it right and I'm want to produce
a a valuable outcome here and it and so this I think is one thing and the other thing is my my my feeling was the the
emotion is that they really care about who's in front of them. So
maybe all kinds of things are happening and and um I think you mentioned this as well in Vancouver. They may not express
it so much like um some westerners do with this like almost over politeness,
but they show you their appreciation by just doing a good job, right? It's like, "Hey, you need help?
You need help? I'll help you." Right? There's no It's not Yeah. Yeah. Loves I I remember once I was uh
in Zurich at a coffee shop, a very very busy place. This was a coffee shop at
the Hayat Hotel which was very busy. A lot of people were there and I asked for
a latte. She made a the barista made me a latte and there was a drop of coffee
on the uh on the plate of the cough uh coffee uh cup. Um so she came running
after me after she had given me because she spotted that drop of coffee uh on my
plate and she came after me saying uh sir let me change this because there's
that drop of coffee on the plate and I said I don't really care about it uh but
I can't stop admiring that issue because here is this person a young girl working
at a relatively uh difficult job because there are so many there's so much
pressure from other people. Uh I immediately thought that if I were in
her position I would not have done what she did. Uh but I respect her because in
her position she did the right thing and strangely the second time that happened
the same thing happened to me was in Singapore. Um I was once visiting Singapore and I experienced exactly the
same thing and I realized that you can inculcate pride in your work among
people who then independently do the right thing whether they believe in the company or the bosses or not
and they do it when nobody else is watching. Right? I think that's the beautiful thing is they're doing it not from a position of fear from an external
source but actually with a relationship with themselves because they go I am not
me as identity barista am not going to serve somebody with a drop of coffee on
the saucer right yeah absolutely and um you know it's exactly the same among Europeans as well
you um I I have experienced an enormous amount of general generosity and u uh
good uh work from Europeans. Um so where we started this conversation was on
about the dysfunctionality that is emerging because western people have brought in a lot of third world people
who do not believe in uh looking at their work as a religious as as if they
are serving God. They want to be done with their work and go home. Make their
money and go home. They have no interest in whether that product works for you or
not because that's not a part of their cultural millio and that is why where
they come from a third world countries and they participate in converting the west into the third world because they
can't give up on this cultural factor which is that they don't care. So many
uh so many ripple effects from these facts, right? It just ripples through all of
society. Um Giant, so at your conference, you
gave the a speech that I would say was very very captivating. Um I was supposed
to be looking around for people with questions, but I ended up just being too distracted by you giving uh that that
that great talk. So could you give our audience a summary of what that talk was
about? Um what was the crux of the speech and uh why did you find it
important to to to give it at your own conference this year? Um so uh Jason a long time back um I
decided uh have having spent a fair bit of my time in the western society that I
wanted to speak the truth. I wanted to believe in the truth and I wanted to speak the truth and I would be searching
for truth for the rest of my life. Um now the society that I grew up in um did
does not have the same definition of truth. For them um truth is about
whatever um gets you ahead of the crowd. Uh so you lie uh and you say that you're
speaking the truth. So truth has different meaning in the society I grew up in. uh but I started to learn the
meaning of truth in the west. Uh and I wanted to speak the truth about what I have seen uh experienced in China over
my uh vis many many many visits to China over the last 16 years. Um what I have
seen is a is a society which is rapidly changing culturally and economically. Um
economically it's growing of course uh which everyone has to accept because it
has grown uh from a few hundred per capita GDP to now $13,000 per capita
GDP. So this is a country that is growing very rapidly. But what I have
seen is that culturally that country is changing very rapidly as well. Which for
me is the higher order factor which defines the future of a society. Because if you are culturally becoming better
people then those higher order factors will show up at surface in the long
term. They those surf those things might take decades. But it also tells me that
Chinese growth and Chinese stability is there for the for the medium term uh and
China will continue to grow. So this is what I wanted to pass on to my audience fully recognizing that western people
have been heavily propagandized against China. Now China is not a perfect
country. I'm absolutely sure a lot of bad things happen in China as they happen elsewhere in the world. However,
in many many ways, China is a lot better country than what it is perceived to be
by very educated and open-minded people in the West. Now, these people would not
look negatively at China by themselves. They are very open-minded and generous people. But the problem is that they
have been so heavily propagandized by their bureaucrats uh in Washington and
the international media that they carry this negative image which is now hardwired in their minds. So as you saw
Jason there was one person who started uh he who couldn't hold himself back from um I would say disturbing my
speech. uh he wanted to raise the con the something about one child policy or
whatever else. Now I I wasn't talking about what was happening in China 40 50
60 years back. I was talking about what has been happening in China for the last two or three decades and the fact that
that country has actually continued to improve. Um and um when it comes to u
Chinese fearing the government, I I now consistently see that uh people in China
are not afraid of uh the policeman. They look into the eyes of the policeman and talk with him uh because they are not so
afraid. They have not experienced heavy-handedness by the government. Now,
of course, there is, you know, there's a fear of Beijing. I'm not denying that.
But then u all I wanted to talk about was that China was a far far far better
society than what a lot of those people thought think it is. Yeah. So um just kind of echoing some of
these points that you made. What I find interesting is when talking
to Chinese via either because they speak English or via Jason um when we were
there the uh uh I I really pushed to ask them some tough questions, right? or
what I thought would be tough questions. So I would ask them like kind of the podcast questions like well what does freedom mean to you and do you feel free
and you know what I kind of try to tease out where these boundaries are and
uh it it really looks to me that they enjoy more freedom for the the daily
things that one would care about than uh I feel I do. And that's quite
interesting, right? So they're like, "Yeah, of course I can't go demonstrate in Chinese about Xi Jinping, but when is
that ever really important, right? You Yeah, but also but also Lois, should you
be allowed to go in public and protest anyway?" I I am uh I I think it's
violence against other people in public when you go and protest there because you disturb their livelihood, their
their movement in public. So, I'm against I think it's as a libertarian, I'm against uh uh public protests. Uh
you know, you could stand on the sidewalk and maybe hold a banner or something, but when you talk about
getting into big groups to uh obstruct traffic and uh create a ruckus, that is
violence. It's interesting that you say that, Giant, because a lot of people in the west would would beat their chest and
say, "Hey, look how good we have it in our society. We are allowed to do that. Well Jason, if three of us went to a to
a street and started protesting, I guarantee you police will come and take us away. Even in the western society,
they don't take take people away when there are 500 of them. So it is not as
as simple as a lot of as what a lot of people make it out to be.
No. And in Germany, for example, you have to register your demonstration, you have to get a permit for it, etc. Right.
So that's that's already a gate and if there is a security cost associated with
it then you might be asked to cover these costs for example. So that's it's all it's it's that's what I'm that's
what I mean. It's very relative, right? And I'm not I'm not I'm not a demo go,
right? I've I've never been. So it's never been important to me. I care about a lot of other things. And it seems like
these things, you know, like freedom to go do business and and upholding contractual law and stuff like that,
that seems to work extremely well in China, right? Yes. and and and and the thing is that
now again going back to my seminar the the the university no longer uh believes
that the police will protect the audience of the conference. So they want
me to explain uh the security issues to do with the seminar so that they can
bring in enough security guards. So unfortunately uh here protesters clearly
it seems have an upper hand that the police cannot be trusted to come on time or even come to help you out and
protesters have sort of a free hand to create disturbances. Mhm.
I mean, specifically in Vancouver, they're probably busy with the goings on on Hastings Street, which
I I have to tell you, Jan, I've never seen that. And and Jason took me down that street just kind of just just let
me see it firsthand. And I it's hard for me still to fathom. I don't understand
how the how the local uh authorities but also the people that
live there I do not understand how they tolerated it and they just walk around it as if it's nothing right and the just
to draw paint a picture for people who haven't been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds maybe in I mean it's a very
long street it used to be a very prosperous street beautiful houses lining the street on both sides going
down to the ocean front and maybe along the whole street who knows maybe 10,000 people that are homeless that but that's
not even the main issue. The main issue is that they are drugged out of their minds but to the point where they can't
talk, they can't walk, they soil themselves, they're just they're just there. They're not violent because they're so high that they don't even
know what what's going on. And I thought it was I mean it really left an impression on me. I thought it was I
felt really bad for these poor souls. But at the same time, I'm like which policy creates this? Which incentive is
at play here to to create this? This is this is not good. Yeah. And and LOI, you can get a free
shot on that street of some of the drugs if you wanted to get and and then they
turn around and ch Why is it free? Well, I I don't really, you know, I'm not into maybe it's legitimate. Maybe
that helps, but the government actually provides you a free shot if you needed a free shot of whatever. I I you know, I'm
not into drugs. I I hardly drink. Jason, so I I don't really understand these uh
these things. Uh but then they turn around and blame including Trump. Now I'm here
criticizing Trump that then they turn around and blame China for supplying fentinile. Uh hey, I can get fentinile
wherever I want to in North America. Why can't you control it rather? And why are
you blaming China for everything? Yeah. there. Yeah, I just thought to ask when I said it's free, I just wanted to
ask you that because I think if we were to tell this to our audience that are let's say not from the west, it's hard
for them to believe. Like for example, my friends in Singapore, you know, it's a capital punishment in Singapore to to
bring in drugs and here you have a government in a western world where up till even up till today people rel find
Canada to be a respectable country. So if when when I came back to Germany and told people here and told friends in
Singapore that this was how it was, they just flat out don't believe me. They say, "No, there's no how can a
government do that? No way." Right. Yeah. And Jason, it's the same with me when I tell them Koreans or Japanese or
Chinese about these things and I tell them about the pride parades or the sexualization of children that happens
in the western society today in schools. Uh they can't they they can't believe
it. They they don't think that can actually happen. It's just so so alien to them.
Yeah. I mean, so I told a to a friend in Germany who's a nurse and she's like,
"Oh, yeah, there these are all uh patients in a drug replacement therapy program." And I'm like, "Right, that's
what's happening." He's like, "Oh, we do that in Germany, too." I was like, "Oh, please don't tell me that. That's [laughter]
that's horrible." But um I didn't see that. I mean the doctor must have not been in because I mean yeah anyway
the the amount of uh you know mental gymnastics the brain goes to I guess to
to to to deal with this right because it because it is traumatic when you see it you're like what is happening here and
then the the mental gymnastics kicks in and people somehow explain it away um is is is nuts. Um, another thing that I
wanted to touch on the um, another way that I thought
people were quite free in China is I asked him about COVID, right? Uh, which
was an event that really, you know, everybody was impacted by either the
either the virus or the policies or both uh, in different proportions. And um I
asked him I was like well how come China seemed to do so well in the beginning but then towards the end it became kind
of the poster child in the west they would say oh look at the least we're not as strict as China because China had these very very uh it's like in places
like Shanghai not everywhere but some places had very draconian punishment for
people breaking you know curfew or whatever and they say yeah was a
mistake. Uh Beijing was wrong they they made a bad call. um maybe because
they're all old old dudes, right? They were scared and so they made bad policy and then as soon as they realized it
though, they completely rolled it back. And I think this is so different than what I would hear from somebody in the
West where they still to this day insist that the response was correct, right?
Which in my opinion wasn't. In my opinion, everybody was wrong basically uh outside of Sweden. Um, and um,
I I there doesn't seem to be a reckoning with that, right? It's like, no, the government decided it they did the best
they could. They did a good job. I'm like, in my opinion, they absolutely did not, right? So,
I think that that's gives you a glimpse of how much they can actually criticize the
leadership and how reflected they also are on some of the stuff that does go sideways.
Yeah. And this is also I talked with in my seminar and I I quoted this that I asked some a Chinese successful
businessman and I said does Chinese government supply enable supply of
fentinile to to the US and his response right away was uh he wouldn't be
surprised if uh they the government actually enables that. So they are
fairly self-critical. He doesn't know of course whether it is happening or not but uh I I find enough self-critical
thoughts among Chinese and this is again the another higher order order factor
which makes me think that the China is going to continue to do well in the future. Jiant, since you're on that
point, uh I just wanted to give you a couple of anecdotes. You know, recently they've had that victory day celebrations in China, right? And there
was this uh picture going around the internet with uh Modi and Putin and
Ceinping together, you know, like doing a three-way handshake. And
um tons of people actually came to tell me that, oh, it's it looks like it's
it's good. you know these three countries can work together and China will help India and India will be the
next China and uh you know China will help India with building the train
stations and the airports and the telecommunications. So in your in your talk you you talked a
lot about China and I think you titled it demystifying China if I remember correctly.
Uh can you help our audience that probably are not super familiar with
your work yet? Like is it true that India will just follow two steps behind and one day be where China is today and
if so if not why are they wrong? They they are completely wrong in thinking that India will catch up with
China or even that India can continue to follow China two steps behind it. China
is progressing. China is a country that is improving. Whereas India is um is
regressing to its pre-colonial past. India is falling apart. It's uh nothing
works in that country. It is a country that is getting worse by the day. Uh and
every u every thing that happens in that country tells me that India will get far

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